Why you should, and could be writing a business book with Cori Wamsley

I think we all want to secretly write a book, right? Well, we want to write a book that’s a best seller but we’ll settle for a hardcover that sits on a few hundred bookshelves. But two things tend to hold us back. One, what will people think? Will they hate it? And secondly, and more importantly, it kind of feels like a lot of hard work.

This is where today’s guest comes in. Is it possible to schedule and produce a book in under a year? And outside of ego, why do we want to write a book anyway?

In this week’s episode, we’re joined by Cori Wamsley who is a coach, an expert and an advisor on exactly this topic.

Cori wrote and self-published seven fiction books and one nonfiction book, The SPARK Method, about how to write a book for your business fast. She is also the executive editor and a writer for Inspiring Lives Magazine, as well as a board member of The Global Sisterhood nonprofit. For more information, please visit www.coriwamsley.com.

Founder Tips for building a personal brand on Social Media with Brendan Kane

When you’ve worked on the digital presence for famous artists like Taylor Swift and Rihanna,
you get a real sense of what is required to grow and foster a substantial social following.

That’s exactly what Brendan Kane was able to do, not just for the famous artists, but also for himself as he grew 1 million following on Facebook.

Brendan is a Growth Strategist, Keynote Speaker and Author.

You can learn more about Brendan’s book ‘One Million Followers’ here
and of course follow Brendan to learn more about his strategy and logic here

Do you need a ‘Mentor’, ‘Coach’ or both for your Startup, with guest Robin Waite

As a startup founder, you’ll tend to lean on mentors coaches and consultants for business advice. However, what’s the difference, is one more important than the other. Should I be paying for one or all these different people to help me in my business? Moreover, how can any or all of these people help me to avoid marketing tactics? Is that focusing on the marketing strategy that the holistic approach to my business?
In this week’s episode, I’m joined by Robin Waite from the UK who’s a business coach speaker and also the author of ‘take your shot‘ and coaching businesses to double their turnover and their profit.

User-Generated Content – Something Startup founders should be thinking about

UGC, which is short for ‘user-generated content’, is the term used to describe any form of content like video, blogs, forum posts, digital images, audio files, and other forms of media that have been created by consumers or end-users of an online system and are publically available to others.

Or to put it another way, this is the content your customer produce about your business.

As a founder of a Startup, this should both strike fear in your heart, and opportunity in your marketing brain.
In today’s episode, I talk with Loraine Ball. After spending too many years in Corporate America, Lorraine said goodbye to the bureaucracy, glass ceilings and lousy coffee. Today you can find her at Roundpeg, a digital agency in Indiana, USA, building smart marketing strategies for businesses who want to use internet marketing tools to grow. Lorraine is also the host of More than a Few Words, a weekly, marketing conversation for business owners.
If you love what Lorrain has to say (and I know you will) then you can find more at www.roundpeg.biz

Sales for Startups, if you’re a founder you’re in sales

Like it or not, if you’re a founder of a Startup company your in sales.

In this episode, I chat with Matthew Whyatt of Velocity Selling. Matthew is a successful entrepreneur, having run his own businesses and in particular sales teams since he was 22, regularly outselling the long-established players in a number of markets.
Matthews’ relentless thirst for knowledge and his ability to apply that knowledge in real-world situations makes him a truly versatile salesperson. Matthew has owned companies with sales in excess of $100 Million in diverse areas such as IT and Software Consultancy, Real Estate, Health, Business Licensing and Franchising.


  • Salespeople are the best salespeople
  • Sales and Marketing need to work together
  • If your conversion rate Sucks, then pushing more leads through marketing is a waste of time.
  • People are generally lazy thinkers
  • I think the founders have an advantage
  • Make sure your email is talking to your CRM
  • ZoHo – it is cheap, easy, flexible and has a great community.
  • Don’t have a copy with a person unless I’ve qualified the value on the person
  • “have a virtual coffee”
  • Find the Sneezer – the person who can refer you to someone who can refer you more than one person
  • Managing time in a founder’s life if super important
  • Don’t abdicate the function of sales
  • Salespeople default to positive
  • “are you ready to belly up to the bar for a big slice of rejection pie”
  • Business owners who don’t understand sales set their salespeople up for failure every day
  • How do I get that first sales meeting?
  • Everyone loves to have their opinion asked


Sales for Startups, if youre a founder youre in sales

00:00:00 – 00:05:04

Whether you realize it or not sales is very much part of the founders job. Not only could you be selling to customers. But you’re also to sell to investors here, employees and your friends and family after old. They’re the ones questioning why you started his journey in the first place on today’s episode. We talk all about sales. We try to help you become a better salesperson, even if it’s not a skill that Ye would instantly side that you have I’m Jared Doyle. And this is a facto podcast, right experts. From around the world to help you drive your business forward. Let’s get into this week’s episode. Hi. And welcome to this week’s episode where we’re going to be focusing all around sales and selling and how you can drive your business forward this week way. Joined by Matthew watt, who is the CEO of velocity selling. And luckily for us Matthew has a haven experience in beta based software and technology companies helping build scalable solutions, which is absolutely perfect. If you’re a founder out there and you’ll building a SAS dot up. Matthews executive kind of person you need to take advice from Saint Matthew. Thank you so much for joining absolute pleasure. How are you? I’m I’m very well. I was just just before we started the show. I just mentioned I had an unexpected delivery. And I’ve just run up the stairs carrying you stand up this. So if there’s a deeper breathing, and it’s episode that’s entirely because I’m unfitting for no other reason Totta podcast. Exactly sorry. Look people listening to this podcast by and large either founders of companies, they’re working in startup companies, and silence is often note the thing that they put down on this day. You don’t say sort of founder and and salesperson and so when I’m really keen to chat to the Stott hear about is. How does what does it look like when a found a has to take on sales? Like, how do they go about doing sales, inC, publicly competing bid veteran sales people who are out in the world working for large organization. That’s great question. And one thing I side of a lot of people is actually the fanned out the person came up with the idea row design, the audio is actually a really great position. They’re in a great position simply because they’re able to actually tell the story of how they went from being from in have I came to actually design develop and deliver the product they they can tell the story about how they soar problem. What that have that problem manifested in other areas in the world, and I. Routed to rather than complain about it rather than being a victim of it. Actually, go ahead and solve that issue. And that story is so powerful when you’re actually being the founder and being the the person who starts that fire. So I think that the the funnily enough, I think the fans out there who are listening to this actually have an advantage are of the Korea South post because if you look back at Korea South posted linked in profile or something like that that sort of jumping from one business to the next or let’s save them even been involved in a really big corporation full for many many years. They just don’t hold the same white is when the founded can go out and site, I saw this. So I sold it, and that’s a really great position to be in. And you can tell that story over and over this has lots of different ways, you can tell that story certainly through social media. And that’s really the the greatest thing to where the happen to I found a right now is that social media pace way. You can actually switch on. Facebook live switch on you’ll video. If you’re not comfortable with iceberg live, switch on the video and just talk about our soul this happening. And I solved by doing this. That’s really interesting. And I I totally agree with you. I can say that having that story having that passion having that origin story that you can dig in say, I’m not just selling this because it’s my job on selling it because this is my greater purpose. This is what I’m trying to achieve. So I can I can absolutely say how that’s an advantage. And it’s interesting for me. They you’ve kind of intersected Miwa held which I often think about which is marketing. So I think about Facebook live, and I think about it from a marketing point of view that dovetails beautifully into what you’ve just said, which is well, actually, it’s the side of the sales pitch. And I guess that’s where the two departments or disciplines actually, intersex absolutely star in marketing if traditionally and culturally, not really played well together, I was reading micro bushes book from Hobbs spot. And you know, he is sits and this is absolutely true. That salespeople view marketing is the ads and cross section. And then marketing these Siles as the as the slick suits and ties section and sorry. And really these two departments need to play really well together. Actually, I need to play seamlessly together. And that’s why a lot of businesses side that your sales and marketing manager now you can’t have old marketing because that’s just it. And if you can’t convert sil-, so so business mess. He business masses essentially leads in multiplied by conversion right equals number of customers. Number of customers. Multiply by transaction. Value is multiplied by times that they purchase from you is revenue. Then of course, you take away costs. Now, the pot that’s important. There is the fire stats with the lead coming in. 00:05:05 – 00:10:00 But then after that if you actually suck it conversion if you don’t know how to charge for your end saw a fantasy so many people say, oh, well, it took me six hours to build. This Sowell Bill six multiplied by two hundred dollars an hour. That’s the cost, and that’s a huge issue for a lot of technical businesses out. There is they undivided a ten fifteen twenty years of experience the shoulders standing on. Of the intellectual property of the mentors that aren’t value that so yes, it might only take you six hours to build the thing or or execute on the on the widget. But really it’s the six hours multiplied by the number of years to actually get this. So there’s a number of elements. Once you’ve got the leading if it’s a leaky bucket, if you’re not closing the premium number or the optimum number of deals if you’ll conversion right sucks than just pushing Malays while set will. Yes, it will get you more sales, but you’ll be super busy. And actually the later you get you get a great customer who’s absolutely perfect for you. He’ll be an amazing Mackey Connie gutter the mock and tell everybody how good you’ve done a good job you’ve done. But if you actually don’t have a good conversion there, you don’t get that deal. You don’t get another bottle that cherry. Yes. Sorry. True. Isn’t it you often you do any get one chance at most companies? And yeah, if you if as four in pitching, your idea to company doesn’t work you probably not going to get invited back in. You know, you absolutely significantly change your proposition. It’s like I’ve I’ve looked once. I’m not gonna look again, my time’s important one. People are generally lazy thinkers, and whether that’s I whether that’s you’re selling betas say all beta bay people wanna put you in a bucket. So if that means that I’ve looked at you’re offering your sales process was sucked always nonexistent or your ability to articulate your value was terrible non-existent. They’re not gonna get rot. I know that I don’t need to talk to Jared anymore because it doesn’t fit on aids. And in next time you come around in that marketing SoKo next piece of marketing you show them. It doesn’t matter. You’ve got to be you’ve got to be five times better than you were last time and you’ll out your first approach to even get that airtime yet. So true is it’s it’s the fest. Perception is what’s it like what the way all ready now? What bucket can I take you in and then making the segment from that? So I guess it’s how you frame you’ll your proposition early on is gonna make the biggest difference in how you can sell it. And how much you be have a sell it full. So I think I think. It’s a great idea. I’m Cain to start talking and get some ideas. One air everyone explore is sort of sales techniques, but the other areas just m just because the audiences is found is in probably a low technical founders. They always loved tools and things. So it’d be remiss not to ask you around different sort of sales tools, and we all know styles falls. But other different tools that you’ve used you commended for different especially for small businesses. It may be one a dip in spend tens of thousands of dollars their little tools or apps that you recommend if doing sales I’m still lately. Sorry at one stage. I had seventy people working full me we had a really lodge southbound lodge service. We my background is actually building software and selling like, that’s what I did. The last time I ride line of code was twenty years ago because it really wasn’t wear. Always. I was best useful in most useful in the business. So I ran the south names. And so the first thing every business needs to recognize that the sales marketing machine their sales and marketing business, and if you don’t think the thousand market. Eating business as probably not why you’re getting the number of south that you want. Like, that’s the first thing that people need to understand sorry side of the reason telling you, this is Suzie circle back to I have seventy people working for me at one side selling various technological solutions also doing consulting for mid tier and enlarge businesses. And so we used Salesforce, you mentioned south of that’s tonight. That’s the are the end of the IT so nobody ever gets sexual buying IBM in the eighties nineties, whereas nobody’s person’s gonna get sex for buying south Salesforce. But that’s bringing a bazooka to a fistfight, it’s super powerful. But as probably other powered than for watching ninety nine percent of my customers, I recommend using Zohar said, I hate you right tool set. Great little fun. Things aren’t one of the tools that I use networking a really important thing to do if you’re a founder, if you’re trying to hustle get out there and actually make people are do that. First of all, that’s the first thing. I would absolutely recommend. If you’ve got no budget, just a gripe. Idea with a cool pace of technology, Osama budget, your funding, engineering funding, whatever else, you need to actually get out there and actually start having communicate conversations with customers in the how you do that these three networking and so in that conversation, you might meet somebody. Now, you’re technical Fanta grab Zog how if you’ve got there’s a app in Zohar code leads and what you can actually do which a fan. 00:10:00 – 00:15:01 Pretty cool is can take a photo of your business cop that will then load that OC aloe that happened to my MCI things. I can then say how I met you. I can say linked I can say networking or dinner, all lunch or coffee got these categories. And then what I do is. I got of met Jared had a coffee with him scan that in and then what actually will happen is. I mock him his coffee, and then the Email immediately would go as saying highgrading great meeting you today at coffee he is a couple of wise to connect with me. And it’s because it’s instant and because it’s it’s on the front foot. It’s not trying. To sell anything. But what it does do is? That person goes oh was nice meeting. Matthew, and that’s a free app sits on your find Teke photo. And you look like you’ve got half an idea about technology as well. I love the I’m going to have to check that out. I’ve used pipe drive a bit. And that’s just because he connects with a whole bunch of other maps and tools and things, but yeah, I’ve used a bunch of different tolls. And the one thing I now is if it’s too complicated in it’s too hot. And I, you know, I don’t use it as soon as you don’t use it totally becomes a burden. Ranjini? It’s like I remember one agency. I’d go back in retrospect of -ly every week Philly in my my my my style’s pipeline software. And you think it’s not working like it’s supposed to help doing not just me and sorry, so Zohar also plugs into all my emails if I sent an Email to somebody who’s in my database through my Jason g mile J sweet that’s already automatically logged in there. I can get a fine coal just the other die from a personal spoke to back in September introduced himself, a sort of remembered had Ovide recollection, I clicked into I soil. The emails aren’t up an Email that he and I communicate on and wall sees chatting art quickly scan win. That’s right, boom. I’m in the conversation, and I’m away. So so Mike show. Your Email is talking to you. You a your CRM and make sure it’s easy. So my big tip. There is a certainly it’s cheap. It’s easy. It’s flexible this got a great community. So when buying apps when looking at and this is actually even for developers look for the look for the flagship with the biggest community around it. So for example, they absolutely you know, the the apple app store that’s got the biggest community. So it makes sense the develop is actually build stuff that sits inside that community. Because it’s like, you know, it’s the difference between setting up a shop in Westfield with you know, tens of thousands of people rolling through every week rather than setting up a single shop on the side of the highway yet, they can still see you. But there’s not foot traffic, and that’s where you need to be in a marketplace with somebody’s predisposed to purchasing from you. And that’s in the app store. That’s in the app store or the south force app store. Yeah. Love that advice. I’m king too. Because you know, we’re talking about making connections in having those meetings and one thing on our with found is they’re often time poll at the developing a product the doing their accounts looking after staff. So if you’re looking at lades commune side, they’re gotta mocking the pop with their marketing departments most Malays themselves as well. They’ve got a few leads coming in. How would you recommend they manage those leads to work at where they need to focus our efforts, maybe even around laid scoring because I guess one of the most frustrating things is the Email that says, oh, we should grab a coffee, and you go, and you have a coffee, and you think well, why am I here? What am I doing and its travel time in coffee time in three hours lights, and you haven’t done anything. It was a waste of time. Are there any sort of tapes in advices from a salesman his point of view about how you should prioritize that time or even work at who where you should? So the very first thing I’d do is I’d I’d have coffee with people unless I’ve qualified them. And I know what I’m doing article for this morning with a good night of mine. He’s a good night at a coffee acey. I have coffee eat too with my friends, and I don’t need to qualify that conversation. Everybody else needs to qualify and on the and that means you actually need to understand who you’ll perfect customers who what problems? Do you sell? For that pithy, custom. And when somebody says, hey, let’s have coffee fund. Yeah. Sure. I’d love to have a virtual actually really busy to that. Let’s have a virtual coffee. Let’s talk for fifteen minutes on the phone arm. Stealing virtual coffee, led his absolutely something. I’m gonna do. Now. I’m just gonna say rather than do that. And you can just jump on the phone or even video chat, hundreds of hours a month aside by people actually doing coffees and that that also at the same time qualify. Sorry qualified by accident a standing what is the upside value here? Now, there’s lots of you don’t want to be completely missed hell would you like to purchase something from me right now, you qualify to have a coffee. So there’s a few visit this quite a few times when you need to build a relationship in that might be running at a parallel line or or an ad at a law in this not directly with your perfect customer. So that might be you’ve done some research in the marketplace and realized that these companies are currently selling to my perfect customer while what go have a coffee with that guy, so consulting him. So if your a just selling assess product that helps particular business achieve a set goal will then what other companies that are aligned that on competing. Can you actually saw it up to that would actually help them add more value to their offering? I love good ideas. 00:15:01 – 00:20:05 I said this is the this is. Like, the concept of Seth gardens concept around like sneezes to this is idea of if you’re going to go off to somebody finds somebody who can influence maybe not going to be a customer themselves, but potentially refer you to ten eleven twelve other customers, so you’re not shooting. Absolutely. I mean. I mean. Finally enough, Jeremy and think about your customer buys this is this is exactly what I’m talking about. Sorry. I work with Betabi software and technology companies and guess what marketing agencies. I have the most communication with. And that sounds odd. Gee whiz. I’ve just pulled back the curtain there. But you know, it’s it’s really really strategic about your time money comes and goes, but time only goes, and and so we need to actually. Copy quite you’ve just come up with off the top of your head. That’s actually from Bob year. Chuck the founder of velocity selling its philosophy selling so. Okay. It’s it’s absolutely not. I am plays. Anybody? Who’s got any takeaways? Steal it off probably stolen ninety percent of my thoughts. Anyway, I stress about a do that yet. Sorry to God your time. And and that’s one of the things and managing time in a startup or a fan as life is super important in getting those one thing, I do feel the Mike actually look they founded the Auburn his time and try to actually get them doing back to what they actually do best which is typically programming, and let’s get them back to do that bit. And you know, one of my customers, for example, they really don’t love running the epistle the business side, they’re involved. But the the best is when their programming and then the last couple of weeks, I’ve seen the think have come into the office IB once for half a day. The rest of the time has them at home running and programming and doing the work that GM in place. They’ve got people running the show now, and that are sort of stepped back from the operations, and that’s gonna that’s a very effective. Yes, if selling insides release something that you, Don. It like an you paint a picture there of a technology. Fanta who we kind of imagined quite nerdy reserved yet look at their shoes serve. It’s not their strength than as quick as possible. Focus on your strengths and bring someone else in who can make a difference. I guess that’s it’s it’s nothing. Actually, we want to cover off on my dismissed ICU early. Dies of mon- consulting is that is done abdicate the responsibility for sales because you want to make sure that you’re actually adding asset value to the business. So if I am a technical fan, and I have a I guess gonna play salesperson post inside you’re out. You’re a salesperson go sell things the missing pace areas. The businesses I’ve worked to win off actually recruited trained salespeople full them that salesperson gets up starts doing their job. And then eventually leaves will there’s been nine knowledge transfer into the business, and the business is actually not better off other than that person’s not the very first step that before you hire a south knew before you ABC. Kate that responsibility. You need to understand what the strategies the south process. You need to understand what you’re going to be measuring the very worst question that anybody can ever ask when it comes to Siles is. Hi, Jerod, how many salads coming in this week because that’s like asking are away by from Brisbane? That’s like asking the Brisbane Broncos won’t they won’t the school debate the end of the match. It’s a frustrating question. But I’ve been on the receiving end of that question. And you just think how. Oh. What’s the default the positive and early opposing who defaults to positive is going to actually have a long career in sil-? Because really, it’s I, you know, let’s be honest here. It’s it’s are used to set a Moi jokingly cited some of the south real are you ready to belly after the bath for big sauce rejection pie again today United? So once you and prosales can cope with that. Not everybody can. But it sounds people that default to to to positive and saw thanks. We’ll have had three great conversations this week. So Jared, I’m getting three sows. But if you had actually put up south prices implies, and your I would imagine how the metrics sitting behind that. There’s a lot of science guys into Siles. You actually go back and look at that. You got what actually takes three dry conversations to create two proposals to create one sound? So so Matthew that’s really clever, but you’ve actually got one south coming in. Right. Yeah. Makes makes a lot of sense. But I I must say I just saying this is ringing in my head where I would do exactly the same thing. And then you said it said expectation of three and then at the end of. The month. You’re how many did you call this one? Will you you’ve set expectations of three you’ve closed one? You know, you start next month off feeling a bit like a failure. So south you set the details up for failure every single die and business owners who don’t understand the science behind Siles set. This sounds people up for five. Yeah. Constantly. Yeah. No, it’s a it’s a really tough thing to do. And and look I often wonder whether or not sale should be a standalone function or whether in the company should be part of everyone’s function. 00:20:05 – 00:25:01 So say if you talking about an agency, you know, I’ve never really ever seen someone with a title of sales business development. Really do a good job. I always find what happens is the most senior strategist thought doing the business development themselves. So they Cobb off twenty percent of the time to do that. I wouldn’t found that solution. But I guess it depends on the type of business as well. Absolutely. It does depend on the business. But I truly believe that everybody in the business has I circle of influence and everybody can’t understand the sales process. Everybody can. And this is actually one thing I do for my clients. I actually get them to we math out the sows process the elements the problems we solve the why that we actually dipped positioning statements, and they’re on the wool everybody from the clean it to the CEO knows the south process and also everybody inside the business is in is engaged in selling. So for example, one client they’ve just brought in where the customer service represent a representatives. So these people who device just answer support tickets. The new part of the job is a couple of times a week. It’s a colon. Existing customers. I hang out with no agenda, and that creates a oh, you guys actually give crap and that is sales as really interesting just the idea of rather than sitting quietly on an account or a client recurring billing his the ring up and just check how things going proactively because you might actually you could potentially even catch a problem that when you didn’t know about you catch it early. Oh, this is niggling inau year. You know this. I can’t change whatever. The whatever the issue isn’t. It might not be worth sitting. In writing a five hundred Email and getting through the support system, but a much just be with all year. Actually now, the mentioned it, and boom, and you’ve got a conversation their goal internal styles as opposed to sort of outbound is this you’re not remember just like internal styles that they also. But it’s part of that it’s part of the framework. So everybody in the business should be engaged in that process. Who’s, you know, so certainly customer service, maybe not your hardcore engineer whose up to resemble buzz in coding every day. But but certainly the the the accounts people who are who following up accounts. There’s no reason why that campus in Kansai, hey, going yet, paperless. And and you know, if you wanna give it more technical, you can actually say all where he released this last month has that helped or hindered. And if anything comes up anything hard or Silenzi, hey that that’s a great question. Can I get Fred to contact you? And go from that actually, get the visual of the technology person. Like the president like you said up to their elbows in code. But I can just imagine. How powerful would be one of the most senior Kotas behind a assassin business. Did actually, you know jump on the phone debugged something sole something maybe even bak- featuring it’s because you God’s down as well. Right. You’re on your third level support. You speaking to the technical co founder, you’re not really thinking of selling, you know, you don’t think you’re going to be sold for that time. It’s probably the exact my house most likely to happen. Absolutely. You’ll defenders of the listening. He has that growth through the business. I need to realize that if you’ve chosen to being on tra- preneurs, then they’ll be continuing requirement fee to get in get back involved in that pace and yet deploy daren’t done wheel amount to every meeting. I made that mistake and nearly dies as well. We’ll the mat to an unqualified meeting, and I apologize for that profusely as a south person as as a consultant. But you know, you really wanna make sure that you’re qualifying them. You’re getting the value day. And when you do roll them out. It’s like you do need to bring the bazooka. Yep. So let me just live back a little coffee mating. And just if we put the show on the other foot, and now I’m doing Siles for my my software business will my my start. I’m trying to get that coffee mating. What’s the what’s the trick to make it happen? The otherwise I had to get someone to actually turn off of that coffee meeting. How do I get that initial contact because that’s probably the bit where most people really struggle. It’s a lot of a little cheat chat a bit of engagement. But actually, how do I get the conversation and actually get that first sales mating with somebody? Is there any tips or tricks source of processes or anything Ican advise, or even this mindset that will help a non traditional sales person actually get some sales meetings and give themselves a chance to make some some styles. Yeah. Absolutely. Look, everybody loves to have their opinion asked. And so one thing that I would do certainly for the founders listing today is you wanna ask questions, and so I appeal. Path to mock, it might be a you wanna fun up a custom affirmative of potential customers. I height on. And you do that you could do this linked in. If you want to do it in text certainly much prefer the telephone his telephone you’ve got inflection Ugo conversation. And so the question might be high on trying to solve this issue. Do you do you find that? This is an issue in your businesses all people that you come across very often. And then yes, no. 00:25:01 – 00:30:01 Maybe hey, look, can I just buy. I’m just trying to I’m building out products. Wait, always trying to do XYZ cannot bar you a coffee, and and an Oscar couple of quick questions this week a love that that just tardily breaks at barrier down because you’ve you have come with an Oscar you’re asking for something. But you’re asking for something that makes them feel good makes them feel important. And so whilst I I kind of the defense mechanism is what’s your osc? Oh, you’re asking for this. I’m quite happy to do that. Because that makes me feel good and what you’ve actually done is. You kind of sucker punch them a little bit because Nathan met she got the sales Mateen and. Roy and carrying Amion while I love it. When you still in the in the death cycle. If you’re still in the in Bill Bill in the minimum viable product cycle. Now, you you actually sell it. We’re developing all we are a guide to the market in X amount of time. And if you can actually say we want a bike in some real wealth faces at love to ask you couple of quick questions. So then so what that did that does a whole range thing strikes a past EBay because they’re an expert. You can say, hey, look you recognize as an expert in the field. These are the issues are Saint heavy saying the same issues and they got Yay. And y’all had cool. I’d want to actually you’ll the type of customer that we want to market to eventually. But we’re not there yet. Can I buy a coffee and ask you a couple of quick questions about what you would like to see as a feature set. And even if you have finished the products, even if you are at minimum viable product sides in you still have that same conversation because it has all lies it easier to process of building the Knicks thing. So you’ve never done certainly softwares south fares is should be done. And. Salt as an MVP minimum viable product. I’m sure that all of L the now that is because just by the way, I’ve built at one stage maximum and viable product. Play three hundred grand my money and an extra iding months, building something and what I’d never did. This is back in the die is about fifteen years ago. Ten years ago. I didn’t actually have a gun the mock inside want, I was I always swept up in the whole Steve Jobs on brilliant. And no my test tests communities of of one. And so that was the the path made to actually burn a lot of cash and achieve zero. So that would be. Yeah. That’s going to read the night with so many people we’ve all fallen into that trap. Where we have dress sample size of one outselves. And this is definitely the right way to do it. And massively over best go to market, and you discover that you’re the only person that would actually buy that you built yourself a very expensive problem solving solution that show oh, the problems not that hot. If the problem is it’s annoying. But you know, it’s not it’s not that annoying or it’s annoying for niche. It’s not that annoying. Yeah. I think it’s fantastic advice and somebody that I think resonates will resonate with old founders. Now looking at the time, I’ve got one more question for you. Which is I’m just curious to know is that something at the moment that you think holds true and somebody you’ve been arguing that you find almost nobody agrees with you when it comes to sales. Yeah. Actually, that’s a good question. So actually one thing I’ve been thinking about recently is the worst advice that somebody can be given is just be yourself. And because found is people who want to actually do something they’ve got to where they are by being themselves. That’s how they’ve been showing. And being himself is actually how they show up every day. And you can actually choose to be different. Just the most people don’t. And so what I would put to people listening is. If you don’t believe you’re a salesperson, Don just thing all of them is going to be myself more. Well, that’s that’s not going to sell anything. So or I need to just be myself and old have more friends. What if you didn’t if you don’t have any friends or you’re in a situation new life right now, the not happy with that. Was you getting yourself? So so think about how you can actually be different and show up differently and looked at applause, whoever every socially emotionally, mentally and doesn’t need you actually have to shave your head and put an orange robe on and sitting on top of a mountain. But it’s but change you can change change is actually the only thing that’s hard coated and baked into the world. So you started we’ll how am I gonna show up tomorrow? So if you’re a fan or out there who who on not a good south person. But I need Siles way. The get somebody’s that can help you through that or change. I like that advice, that’s really good brilliant. So if someone has listened to the end the episode and home, I certainly that means they’re probably running some kind of Sasso technology software company and they’ve loved what you had to sign with lines getting contact with you. What’s the best way to find? You got a website, Matthew, Wyatt dot com, you’ve got velocity selling dot com. And. And of course, I if you find me on at Matthew Wyatt on on linked in or Asari on Facebook Lincoln and mass. What onto it up, you’re everywhere. So basically if they look for though, fine you and as soon as they were reasonable introduction to you. So they do that linked introduction. 00:30:01 – 00:31:46 And it’s a blankets introduction. You probably accept it. But better off mentioned the podcast give some introduction and ask for virtual coffee, and you’ve put a much better chance of actually getting that mating. Absolutely look at and you know, what? And Ottmar time is spent actually having conversations with people, and and providing some assistance of worked with venture capital people up worked for the whole range of people in the tech spice and NF I can help I would probably know somebody who can help. So I’m happy to have that conversation brilliant. Well, that’s the challenge for everyone. Reach out to Matthew, send him invitation on linked in telling you bitch, your coffee, piggies, Brian, and somehow you will end up benefiting from a sales point of view with your business. Matthew, thank you so much for your time today, a really appreciated. The advice is invaluable. I there’s so much more. I want to ask you about selling because I think it’s probably the one area where most startups fail. So I will almost certainly be getting you back on to talk a little bit more around particularly around the art of telling in selling the prospects. Thank you for your time. Chatting with you again, releasing and actually pleasure Tokyo Lennon, geez. Boston. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode. I hope we’re able to provide you with some great marketing ideas, that’ll really help your business as always if you’d like to support me and the show just jump onto Janes or wherever you listen to this podcast and write and review those reviews really make a difference and help me reach a broader audience if you’d like to connect the best way to find me. Of course, he’s on linked in following me on social media, which is connecting. And if you could ideas for future episodes or your mock data, and you would like to appear on a future episode just hit me up on late dinners. Well, I’d be happy to have a chest. Thanks, look look forward to speaking with you next week.

What Does a UX Designer Actually Do? with Warren Prasek

If you work at any Startup you’re going to hear the initialized job title ‘UX Designer’ uttered at least once a day. But what does a US designer actually do?
Why are all modern startups seemingly obsessed with UX, how do you ‘do it’, oh, and how is it different from UI?

On this episode, I chat with Warren Prasek from Connect Develop
You can also check out Warren’s photography at Xoodu

Here is the advice Warren would leave a Startup founder with after a mentoring coffee meeting:

Firstly understand the problem you’re trying to solve, validate that it’s a real problem that people have, and then come up with an idea that might solve that problem and then test it with as many people as you can and then keep iterating in that pattern.

So basically constantly evolve your design solution and constantly test that an iterator and improve on it. Don’t wait until you think you’ve got something that is a fantastic product that solves all the problems in that space. Try to focus on a particular set of problems that aren’t solved by anyone currently, and then constantly improve your solution and don’t wait for perfection, because as I said before that’s not possible, you’ve got to get out there and test it, and constantly improve.

Episode Transcript

0:01 – 05:05
When you think about the valuable companies in the world today, like Amazon, Google, Netflix EBay, Microsoft, apple visa companies with most of your interactions through user interface. And that’s why user experience it’s such a hot topic right now. In today’s episode. We’re going to dive a little deeper into user experience. And why it’s so important to make these pot of what you consider as you’re building a business. My name’s Jerry Doyle. And this is the facto podcast or bring experts from all over the world together to help you improve your business in marketing communications design, everything that you might need to create a successful business. Hi. And welcome to this week’s episode this week, we’re going to be talking all about USO user experience, and I’m joined by a colleague from longtime ago, Warren pressing who is a seasoned you ex- experienced sort of professional and currently working with the sod up connect develop Warren. Thank you so much for joining me. Hi, jared. Thanks for having me on really interested myself more about U X because it’s something that I use in my everyday business chats with clients I’m talking about you X you and inevitably getting both of those wrong. So actually, I think the first thing we need to before we go any further and talk about details. He quickly distinctly for everyone explained the difference between you X, and you I so we strike again. Yes. Show also use a interface UI design, effectively, that’s everything you see on the screen Yoda Voss or your computer when you’re interacting with the platform. Or out? So if you’re on Facebook, everything you see there in front of you that’s use interface the buttons ups images, you see in really visual representation, whereas you, Alex or user experience is more about housing’s work. Not just how they look it’s how they feel how things taunt together on how you move through an app and bicycling on get the value out of it. So there’s a lot of a lot more in depth kind of background research development design that goes into creating how flows and what’s the most efficient on enjoyable way to use an app rather than just how it looks. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I guess it’s something to wear your ex even as a phrase that I’ve really been using the last few years, it something where experience is going to be a big impact because it’s you can’t just turn up instantly had Zayn everything perfectly. You can copy things at a successful. But I’m guessing experience in years of knowing the way uses hype behind devices in screens and. Apps. His is a big advantage for you. Yeah. Absolutely. I guess you can never really know how uses agai to interact with something until you research it. So the first that each of us experienced design is really understanding firstly Utah. Getting he’s likely to use your apple parents. And then I guess talking to these Glenn on standing what they’ve pain points so challenges also how they currently doing things while problems that I having actually talking to them in observing them in their actual environment Thomason the context in which they using something Monte like at home on the lounge in an office. They might be a bus going somewhere. And also, I guess trying to come up with ideas for solving problems testing, those solutions very quickly and then issue arising on the solution over and over again in testing is customers always uses to find out what works best big sometimes, it can be very different to what I expected or had guest hadn’t even really coach me that you might actually physically what some Honey using. Interface or during a website. I was gonna say is this technology or or tracking you probably have both actually Abed technology that you can use to sort of give you insight since the white people are engaging with your UI. Yeah. Absolutely. So they’re all kinds of different tools. You can use you can use analytics programs, which by Optima sued potty tool what can thirty bicycle will be Google analytics and his other versions out there that you can use to erupt into cloud up, for example, that basically let you know, what using using which features you can even screen trite where they curse is moving. If they using a desktop divisive in can see where they posing on a certain point of interface, or if they what we call right clicks, which is win is clicking around random, which means they try to click on something stinks should were. But it isn’t a link deadlines click on something, which isn’t actually political things like that. You can get the analytics. And then also you have unmotivated testing where you can. Conduct a remote session. He contested advice with someone and you can awesome questions bar microphone in screen. Recording can see what they looking at. And then he can also do an actual in-person test. We sitting down with them looking over their shoulder with the have a scenario say, for example, you’ve logged into internet banking app.
05:05 – 10:01
Anyone a transfer money to your friend co bulb? What would you do any sit back and watch them try to accomplish that task, and then might be awesome questions along the way without donning them. And try to understand what is thinking of a time. They looking for while they understand as opposed to will actually doing onscreen because quad Austin, a use it will say something different from what they’re actually doing this human psychology. I guess I was gonna say probably find yourself as a marketer. I find myself reading behavioral psychology books now because it’s it’s that competitive advantages seek beyond the tactics some guessing it’s the same thing here. You all of a sudden become like a part time Casuals colleges trying to understand. Why people do things that make sense? Yes, that’s true. Suckle Ogies in critical. Of any design process. The number one thing to keep in mind when you autism. Joining is that you are not your user, which means if you design something for yourself, unless you actually full into your target audience than you might mistake because you the person going to be using the prince, and you really need to talk to his people get it in front of you very early concepts value hypothesis and then test you solutions over and over again and each right to get a little bit that every time rather than waiting and trying to get it. Perfect because perfectionism illusion is not really possible. It’s continual choice that you you sort of pursuing the same thing. Join down the line and hoping but young everything is accurate because she never got into it. So we can have flaws in inefficiency somewhere buy into the system. So I was trying to say, I love rights flakes. I’m going to steal that fries. I’m gonna use it all the time now. So that’s that’s a definite. Takeaway for me. I also find interesting just the previous podcast was around. Conversion rate, optimization landing page optimization. And the things you spoke about around Ryan fix actually hold true. Because the same thing that look Chapman became on. Speaking about conversion on physician is actually very similar to you ex opens you describe which is looking at people saying where they clicking on there. No Ling’s saying where you know, the links that you didn’t think were important, but everyone’s going to whether spending time, so I guess where I’m going with this is what does the tame look like risen, I’m guessing you just operate isolation. So who the kind of people within an organization or a startup that you spend the most time interacting with as a text approx based tech startup. We have a cloud platform for connecting energy to building sites, and we have sort of classic taught per same here whereby we have, you know, myself as designedly we have maybe some designs involved, then we’ll have normally approach to owner or prompt manager who has sort of a high level understanding of. A strategic and business goals of the prompts. We might have the technology officer in both sometimes we might have cells in customer success. You have a good idea rebel. What else is in the market in what customers currently using teaches? And then we’ll have some developers front-end and back end. Maybe a Q test engineer, and I guess the whole team which is like a cross functional team with different skill sets. Or you’ll come to get up, and it’s necessary for less skills to work together to deliver a feature in the prompts and tested a get it out into production. In who in your experience is usually the the person his Maleki to introduce a roadblock into this system in slow everything. Now, you know, sometimes there are technical constraints. So you want to do something, and you know, the tech team will advise you the bicycling we will always going to say you can’t do that. But that’s not necessarily true. You can do just about anything you want. The question is how much time and money are you prepared to spend achieving and Elba responsible? Of the their manager would be making the right choices wrought time. So basically weighing can we deliver the mice value quickest throughout uses so probably the proton in terms of bizarre, currencies and the development team in terms of things technical constraints will be the two biggest blockages, I guess. So if we scale this right back down for a super small slot up, the mine, they have to maybe three found as let’s assume that Clinton apprec- preciado for you X and importance who typically in that team is the most important person because when you get a founding Joel tria they tend to wear multiple hats. But if you’re looking at US is it gonna be the design person who leads that, or is it likely to be the person who’s closest to the customer who who’s leading sort of the US import Ewing’s is again is all UI graphic design, which is sort of more. I guess in a way superficial is really requires deep understanding of your customers, and they use cases. So I guess you need to. Have a lot of domain knowledge, and you need to be very in touch with the customers. Otherwise, there’s really no point building perhaps a launching something without understanding who’s going to be using it and what I need. So I guess there’s no easy answer.
10:01 – 15:05
It’s a bit of a mix you need to solve problems of people in a way that no one else has done before. If you bringing new pro Tanaka, we’ll do it in a better way than all the people doing it make it a lot easier the whole fund or low quicker. It’s not my simple onset, you’re wanting. It’s a blend of understanding customers, and then breaking it down and delivering a solution may stay needs which is a bit of bit from column think from Columbia. Yes. But I think in some ways is actually really good answer there, which is a lot of people might to faulting to think he will have does design way. So whoever is building the website. That’s the person in charge of you ex. But you know, you’ve painted scenario. They were e that you’ve got an enterprise software package in which case the client reps, the sales people might actually the people who need. To really have input on will be black lines trying to do with the product. This is what I wanted to do because often you’ve got a designer who can be quite precious about the design tiny, this isn’t exactly right. But if it’s not laboring what product nays deliver the experience isn’t easy, and and giving outputs, and it’s going to file, so I guess, you know, the tanker right here is you get close to the customer and the product, and when it’s trying to which Abe and whoever’s the closest to that in proably the post needs to be having the most amount of input on agree with that. It’s absolutely critical. John STAN won’t you try to change and to whom full even worried about how it might local field. Need to understand? What are the problems? We’re gonna solve so. Yeah, that’s the starting point. So other companies that Ye kind of look at that, you feel not just do you ex? Well, but potentially lead the way and what I mean by that is you know, how you have great big companies and they can introduce so nothing example, what did he call as three BAAs at sitting up on the top left hand corner. Someone had to kind of come up with that concept. I you know with the face. Boecker ambien. Bayer Google, but I guess what? I’m wondering here is other companies that we can look at that that ascending setting the trends in u x that everyone else gonna has to follow or am. I just imagining that this happens in the restaurant using trendsetters out there at all to be honest. Some of the tech giant’s in Silicon Valley who really setting standards, partly because they have a lot of cloud in the streets, really use advice and also partly because of the Harper afoul. Everybody uses it of offices in platforms out and also because they have the money to bore a hell of money a lot of resources into research and design and each racing towards a beautiful experience. So for example, apple the Airbnb as you mentioned a lot of these companies are really streamlining experiences, and as you say setting standards at all the people tend to follow. So in that sense. I she pot of the game is to have a look inside. Well if. If I spoke and Google, and Microsoft and Amazon role following this particular trends that it made sense that we have to follow unless you unless you happen to be lucky enough to be building interface for a platform has five or six million. Plus people you probably have to let them set the trends, and you just have to make sure you keep up with it. And yet, no this such thing as a handbook of menu. And you know, maybe even a rule maybe handbook menus of what is going to be top left and bottom. Right. I don’t know these things, but I’ve never seen a hamburger menu in the bottom right hand corner of the screen. So I’m just gonna assume that that’s the case. Yes. So he’ll effectively as you X conventions, which is something that stain so establishing so widely used and understood as a patent that most uses will recognize end instantly be able to use effectively. So makes a lot of sense to utilize those rather than trying to reinvent the wheel use something that just makes sense and works. The thing is though that’s a very sort of Bisi Ewing’s challenge show. Knowing menu of options, which has he say has been sold. And then depending on how you unique your per ups or experiences, there’s a massive amounts of room for experimentation in custom design that hasn’t necessarily been addressed by always other know, huge Totten’s of the industry because the head that rowing perhaps with their own needs their on use cases. So it is still a lot of things that you would probably won’t sue design yourself any game. Hamburger rock on is predominantly a UI element rather than actual experience so tied together. Those workflows in solutions in the white feels works is it’s a lot more challenging than just picking a I can bet you curious tonight. Is there you exploit trends of like topics right now in areas that everyone’s kind of experimenting with the area where the challenges of being met that you can kind of elaborate on. So we get a sense of guess, the cutting edge of you Xs right now, I guess like five years. Ago. Everything was kind of at based it was a lapse on your phone or you’ll ipad devices, something like that. Whereas now everything’s really moved to cloud platform. So pretty much only apps that reliable now. Awesome, cloud Bice Facebook, everything that apple does him in the Google does is all pretty much in the cloud.
15:05 – 20:03
And I think another state state-owned from that is where we starting to get into things like mentioned reality and sort of wearable devices act lived on a great job with the experience on the watch. For example. I think the the market is kind of fragmenting because in the future, not everyone will be just using a phone to interact with perks that we using a smart watcher of mentioned reality glosses, though, any number of other devices in your conflict sample. So there are going to be always other devices in ways of interacting with platforms that we probably on familiar with yet. And ultimately, it’s gonna be quite a challenge to design these different experiences, these different apps that he used in all kinds of different contexts, and I guess testing them in understanding what works. Doesn’t it’s a bit of a bit of a new frontier, actually. And then, you know, who knows where it’s gonna lead in the future much is a huge challenge. I mean talk about virtual reality just hardly thrives the whole user interface window. It’s a whole new environment which they to deal with. But you know, diversity is the challenge. It’s the it’s the the difficult part of the job that I’m I’m guessing you probably relish, whereas if ever was logging on in the same screens the same devices Siamese devices, you communicate dull. So I can I can say this issue. A lot of fun challenges there for you yet. He knows where it’s going to go on the teacher. It’s pretty amazing actually everything is starting now you need to go self driving cars and everything like that. And that’s a a US or prompt challenges will as well as technology in high with is required to make the damaging avoid heating. Anyone you know, how do you control? And ultimately a lot of the things signed to become alternated with his very little sort of interface and interaction with a user or scenes almost transparent to them that you did not physically touching. Green necessarily. So I think that divorce is in experiences again evolve from literally interacting with a screen to something that’s more abstracted than kind of blended in with the rest of the reality, your rain, and you you’ll almost not sort of nauseous unify civil almost disappear entirely until in eighteen track was in many of the actions. Remind phased is down just bike dean tragedy at night. Like, we just grow up. I mean, I think we’re with kids of an age, which means they were born looking at the idea, there’s an ipad screen, and they got the idea that put the finger on and every parent with kids ten years and year Unda have had that experience where they’re looking at six month old going hang on the worked at what swiping us on an ipad. And you just realize that’s just the power of the whole user experience. When you’ve got a six zero ABC wax it out and on how to get rid of pitcher, I can Chinese screen, and the great thing about kids is that I mean, not only those experiences incredibly in Shoda because you directly into. Acting with the objects on screen since obstructing at bar amounts or tied. You actually touching the object you want to interact with I mean, apple did an amazing job with you’ll you’ll gestures where you sort of pinch your fingers, or you turn things around on screen any felt like you actually sort of touching the objects. But the great thing about kids is and they’re bright white test your prompt, in fact, because kids have no fear of breaking stuff. They will touch. This do that do anything without C, or as adults tend to be more constrained than a bit wary that they’re gonna break something that’d be something wrong. So if you wanna tip contesting, your parental service. Get some kids to play with anelle thou break it pretty quickly. It can be broken. Hopefully, just the work’s not the actual device. I have a six year old son. And I think it’s equal risk of breaking up and breaking the device. Yeah. That’s that’s true. Yeah. Might be keeping us stay case. So for somebody does you ex how do you turn? You x into a prophet, Sandra? Not call center for. Business. What are the kind of things that you? You’re right down you present to shy. Look, I’m not just here, you know, throwing away John delivering value and possibly a return for the business. What are the kinds of metrics that you sort of define success by fee for yourself will? It’s interesting fortunate to be in a position whereby the company would Woodfull are incredibly invested in ease experience in practice on because I recognize that he’s not possible to compete, or I guess succeed in a digital platform without having a quality experience because the standard next time has been set so high by there’s other companies mentioned before Oubre, Annapolis, own fools that anything sub-standard people intuitively. They used that. He’s feel it doesn’t work. Well, they don’t come away with a positive experience which damages you’ll Brian in the foyer success totally. There’s no chance of vacation Claude I guess this concept you may have heard of cold designed. Thinking in the bicyc- premise is that everyone in an organization needs to think about design which is affecting. It’s about so problems. Don’t making something look beautiful that solving problems on making an experiences pleasurable as possible.
20:03 – 25:04
I guess and so when you take your approach from that point of view than designing the parole from the uses point of view, it’s it’s basically, Brian you don’t need SUNA -ssarily, so metrics to however, if you had to you can look at things like how many uses do we have how often using the parents are they using L sages? I we doing surveys to ask them how happy they out with Trump’s and also doing always use a testing sort of methodology sentimental earlier on about observing uses and mapping Nova time. How long it takes people to perform key tasks and how frequently they doing it which is a fairly good indicator as to I guess how easy the prompt is. A us amid full how successful you are as designer, yuck. Imagine that things like you have someone like Facebook. The amount of time spent in the app is a good thing. Whereas other businesses of transactional. Nice. She want people to read success in the shortest period of time. So as a mock it Arkan, imagine tying up nicely with conversion funnels interactions. I can also imagine net promoter schools in the idea people’s general satisfaction being super important to this whole experience. And when I think about giant brands that exists now, we’ve mentioned a bunch of the bait Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, eat, you realize your entire experience is through a user interface. So I’m guessing Beth probably why would saying job titles that really didn’t exist. You know, whatever it is five seven years ago now become such hot property in U X. It’s because I run the interaction with these brands is through user into fights. You know, there’s no shopfronts when open Damon have tangible products, and yet the most valuable companies in the well to just Tommy around interfaces is that trend to remove. Physical world and become much more. Virtually is that why would sane you X just appear as as buzzwords just seems to be growing importance or or their other factors I’m unaware of. Yeah. I think that’s largely true. I think as technology has become so pervasive in allieds. Thanks, largely to small fines night only really sort of brought to about ten years ago when apple released the first Iceland on that completely changed the way that sort of we interact with against each other in the world. I mean, the economy became more digital our everything, scalable blind. You say you shop online, you communicate online you go everything in your pocket. You’re in toss sodas virtual law is in your caucus. And because of that it’s become so powerful that we’ve learned to lease patents in new behaviors where we rely on. These devices may stage experiences having everything enough fingertips that as you say making Matt experience as seamless employed as possible is really critical, and that’s all. You see where it user experience design. Come in. The interesting thing is that user experience at Troy has been around for a long time. It’s just evolved over that time in his head different job titles against Jimmy is coach human computer interaction. And I know I keep mentioning apple on. I do like it prince Baen it’s worth noting, man. Why back in ninety ninety four when it released the first MacIntosh, computer. So we’re talking define years ago. They released a massive fake textbook bicycling, though defining all these patents interactions inexperienced guidelines. So it’s been around for a long time. But now, I think most people are aware of it because everything is so digital instantaneous yet of this same time that that would doing things like introducing screens in mice. And these things that we now just a shoe a standard practice, but you’ve got to have the cost your mind back to to realize they sing student, even in the exist. Let alone touchscreens. So I’m Cain to give a like a. A golden nugget of advice, I’m gonna pay scenario for you where which happens a lot when you’re next in an area. And that is the someone’s heating you some free advice. So in this scenario, a you’re at a cafe as a founder, she’s building an app, it’ll be an app about something. We’ll call about fitness for one of a better industry, and she’s really trying to get like any kind of information off you in you’re giving a lot of information. But if you boil that down and said, look, what’s the one thing you want her to take away when she goes off from Ezer experience point of view. What’s the one bit of advice that you want to really get stuck in on firstly understand the problem you trying to solve valid validate. That is a real problem. The paper has and then come up with an idea that might solve that problem and then tested with as many people as you can. And then keep into writing in that patents of basically constantly evolve. Your design solution and constantly tests that in each writer and improvement. Don’t wait until you think you’d go. Something that is a fantastic parenthesis. All the problems in that spice trying to focus on a particular set of problems that on so anyone currently and then constantly improve solution in don’t don’t wait for perfection because of the full that’s not posted.
25:04 – 30:03
We gotta get out and tested in constantly improve. Its really good advice. I’m in my head. I’m running through a couple of different things. I’m working out in the moment thing. Yes. Jared you need to do that. As like, you just let it go. Let a guy public ship it as they say that that’s the that’s the thing. Try not to be too precious. It’s difficult when you have an idea that you’re passionate about and you have a vision, and you really want to do the best possible thing for your uses. And you don’t want to short change them coming out. There isn’t quite right. But if there is a problem with your your assumptions, I guess then you really wanna find out about that as soon as possible don’t white get it out the tested, and there’s an old saying that says if you want to release your proper service. It’s to a point at which you not embarrassed but supposed to release than you went into Maung has one of things Steve Jobs said that he struggled with these first inclination. Napa was that. He would try to perfect everything. And then he got a little bit more relaxed things since of understood that you have to get something just out the door talking sell anything. So he had some Donna Giambi’s on things because he wasn’t absolute sanctions apparently by all accounts. Definitely visionary. How were the he’ll so did site at real Ossis ship, which means ultimately, you gotta get something out the door t don’t get it out the door never gonna sell anything. And to be honest. If you white until you got the perfect solution almost certainly someone’s going to beat them up, and you perfect solution will be with nothing because everyone is already using another platform. I want see the value in moving tools, and you become another is people that say haw had this idea. But some inside did it before man, I missed it. That’s my chance gone. Yeah. Exactly. So for example, VHS versus Betamax video tight from thirty years ago, the who’s in inferior technology, but it came out to market while you before. Amax? So basically captured the market share dominated even though it Betamax was a faucet period technology. It happens inside many different businesses. There’s multiple reasons why. But if you’re not in market, you’d never gonna win any market share sites credit advise. So is there is there something that you’ve put your eye on a trend that you think might be turning or something you’d think at the moment is right? But may be more than half of the other you X community doesn’t agree with and and you’ve got a chance to cut a Cobb. A visionary viewpoint on on you X moving forward. Is there any kind of area that you’ve got a inkling on that? You don’t think other people are really cutting onto at the moment. I wouldn’t say so because realistically, I mean, what am I gonna say the rest of the community, isn’t that? Either means a genius or a pariah. I’m not sure on unity on us. I think I’m Bryant is something a lot of experience in opinions. But nothing, but most of them would be in line with a lot of other you express Titians. I think that some in general the challenge is sort of where do we go from here? A lot of Princeton, sir. Services have already been fairly will covered. I think the trick these days in relief finding a niche that’s quite different. And really hasn’t been attacked before the other challenge, of course, is from business point of view, this somebody from people out there doing so many things you never really know what anyone else is doing until they’re in market. So, you know, you just gotta go out there and give it a go. I think. Yeah. I think it’s it’s almost impossible you kind of look at a market and try to find mean, obviously, there’s a cursory glance to make show. There’s not someone doing exactly what you’ve got the forty built a huge business. But I think it’s just a rule of thumb. They used is that if you’re doing it someone else’s probably trying the business at the same time with the same idea. So you ship it get something in the market right improve. And hopefully you win. So I guess this one thing that I have an opinion on that. Some people may not agree with I can’t tell on musk is a madman or genius. He certainly might using marketing, but some of these ideas and some of the things he’s doing it. So. Marketing he’s just literature on buildup Olis’ hot around berries technologies in order to promote something else on a conquest which way he’s going. But I find him wanting interesting enigmatic kind of those my theory is that anybody who significantly changes the status quo of society is mad to a certain extent. So they tend to be equal pots genius in mad. And I think about all the people have done amazing things, and you can get all of our genius idea that and you look and go. Yeah. But on the flip side, they also had always evil, pasta home. And I think I think that’s what happens in if he if you’ve gotta have this incredible pesonality think I’m gonna make the entire well, Dr self driving electric cars and all most colonize MAs at the same time, and and create efficient transporting tubes. Anything you’ve gotta be mad to do. That will. Thank you so much for all your insights warrant, I love it, all and what’s that phrase? We doing again, angry clicks range clicks, rage clicks. That’s the fries. That’s my taika. White writes clicks is the thing that I wanted to. Voyage of it. People want to all your work or accompany. Oh, you on whatever social media, you prefer the best. What’s the best way for someone to kind of engage with you will follow your work? So among linked Nikiel, sit on my website were impressive dot com.
30:03 – 30:29
Annals even plug to my photography sought a bit of a sideline may his much anymore. Now at kids spot of images there, Zuhdi dot com aches, ODU, don’t come and connect develop dot com. They company Woodfull. Obviously, we have our own website is so yes, we’ll free to have a look Aaron, please. Join me a line. It’s interesting getting in touch untested. Thanks so much time today were great catching up with you look forward to speaking with you again Phillies. She’s jared. Thanks night.

Video Marketing for founders with Amir Bazrafshan

What did you think of the latest Gillette “We Believe: The Best Men Can Be” ad ?

What about Nike‘s “crazy women” ad?

Why is one ad, so much better than the other?

“To any founder listening to this……. go back to why you started, and the mission that you’re on, find your purpose, and then create content that’s in line with that.”

Wise words from Amir Bazrafshan Managing Director at Apricot Video Marketing

You can hear the full episode here, where we discuss:

  • The basic level of quality needed for video campaign – however using your mobile phone is fine
  • Sound – the unsung hero of a good video
  • Building conversion funnels into your videos
  • Using YouTube for brand hero content
  • Video case studies and how to build rapport between the subject and the viewer
  • using emotion to justify an emotional decision
  • We talk the emotion in the latest Nike commercials
  • purpose marketing and how brands are getting it wrong
  • The Shoe Dog Book by Nike’s founder
  • We talk about not confusing tactics with strategy
  • Why view count is one of the least important metrics for video
  • Should you do direct to camera or use stock video
  • How do you hire someone to hep you with video

Episode Transcript

0:00 – 05:07
Video is one of the hottest trends in marketing right now. And it’s easy to see why last year four point six billion video ads watched online and those same videos produced twelve hundred percent more shares than text any midges combined on social media, but video is much more than just a tactic in this podcast, I discussed how video is the ideal medium to live your brand message. Why is it that your business? Does what it does? I’m Jerry Doyle. And this is the practical podcast, bribing you mock knee experts from around the world to help you advance your business. That’s getting today is episode talking about video marketing. So welcome to this week’s episode and this week we are joined by a Baz Zaref Shan from Aprecu video marketing old way over in the UK. Welcome in me to the Shire. Hey, Jared, thanks for having me van testee. So so as a citizen, I’m glad to have every British person. I can on the show I lived in Britain for ten years. So it’s great to have somebody from the other side of the weld sharing their insights and this week. We gotta be talking about video marketing, which is near and dear to my heart, and he’s one of the trending topics for all forms of online marketing on but also marketing general, so this should be fantastic episode to help you help your business utilize these new formity marketing, which I’m going to be honest is probably quite daunting when you get started. But hopefully, the end of this podcast amaze going to be able to share some insights for us, which makes it same a little bit less daunting. So I’m going to jump straight in. With the through the first question the same question. I asked every week. I think he’s going to be bit different for you woke with focused on here is trying to understand if there’s any kind of competitive advantage or difference that a founder of a small startup company can bring to video marketing to compete with the businesses because obviously we’ve got massive differences in budgets. He so what can a small business or a founder of a small business due to possibly can pay with the kind of budgets that a lodge organization might happen meal? Yeah. As really good Arabia question. And I think what it comes down to it. Would it comes a few different things invisible? Am I think he comes down to the ability to humanize yourself, and what is that you will doing as startup as new company and the ability then to get the out at scale. Zero cost. I oblivious your website uploading it to teach eve and an and been able to measure the the impact of those videos. Against you know, what the competitors are actually doing as well. Right. So humanizing it and being real is is one competitive advantage. Do you do you look at this and think there’s a minimum level of quick or production that someone needs to do? Or is it depend on guess on the the company what you’re trying to portray video. Yeah. I think I think there is like a a critical mass, shall we say of a of a quality that you need. I think because we will say yes to HD even full K on our mobile phones. Now that does need to be a basic level of production quality. But I’m although I run a video agency. I’m not a an equipment snow, and I think is absolutely fine to to use your mobile phone slum is a sound is pretty decent. So you’re not lot outside the winds blowing give it God Bill to. Hey, you and actually sound is one of the unsung heroes of good quality video. So if you’re in a quiet room where even. If you wearing headphones mcferrin attached to it, and if you will create some some social vide, for example, that’s a really good way just to just to get started. Unlike I said, it really puts a personality to to the brand and it puts a face to to the website to the proposition and. Let’s not forget people people buy from people from human beings. Even in like, a B two B context is still people within the businesses the buying. And I think that does doing youth. There’s lots of different kinds of videos, you can create but just doing the simple kinds of videos can really help to to to give you the edge, especially when you’re starting out. If you don’t have big budgets to invest in your marketing. It can really it can really help you to make the connection to the people that the matter the can then they can help to implement your your message. Yeah. I think that’s really good advice. I am I often get frustrated when I say small business websites and small business. It’s a business of one. And you see a website tasteful and say, we do this Al company thinks this stop and think to myself, it is just one person.
05:07 – 10:07
Like, I think bay who you AVI human be real because that show competitive advantage or a faceless lodge organization. You’re a real person. So I guess in video that’s that chance to bring that personality full would and not hide who you actually are behind, you know, the idea of being be corporate productions, so I think that’s a really good advice. Now, the other thing you mentioned that was just around the different types of videos. So obviously, there’s a lot of different types of videos. What springs to mind is the idea of like the first feeder, which is often the explain of video? And then of course, you’ve got I’m trying to think of the other kinds of videos, you what maybe you could maybe can jumping inside. Give me told me the different kinds of video is that people rejecting. No, I quite let you struggling to think of them to be honest with you. So so to to think, I think the best way to think about types of video when we’re talking about tops video with the talking tactically, and I’m always cancelled talk about tactics because tactics will only work in relation to a specific strategy. But for now how about inside an Allen to the question. So if we look at a funnel approach to tomorrow ting, you the toll middle in the bottom of the funnel. So who looking at the top of the funnel. We’re looking at a wins. So social video is good for for wetness. You’ve gone. Content that is native to to YouTube. So I think YouTube platform, but I think it has its purpose in it shouldn’t be the automatic Goto place for bleeding all of your video continent. Cannot cheat work against you in some ways which can address a little bit later in the Trump. So I think you teams good full. I would say brand Herro content. It’s likely to be Tena purposes will shed educational content as well even video even video books. Peachy Friday has when it’s Facebook, sit alongside YouTube. It’s it could be this morning, specifically, different medium, isn’t a. Yeah. It is different medium in each platform will have a different psychology. So people go on for different things a niece of how to address that within the design of the video the you’ll kind of alluding to the full. So when people go onto Facebook than not specifically going on to watch a video, you have to bed by mind. When people go into each exactly what they’re trying to do. Right. That’s that’s their objective. So it makes it a little bit more straightforward. And do you think people on YouTube a generally looking for information sometimes I’ll look into into time? But sometimes I actually specifically specifically looking for information, whereas Facebook, it’s almost always just entertain me. I don’t know if there’s a big difference in the sake between the two platforms, but that’s my. Yeah. Immature interpretation of why people use them. No. I think I think that’s pretty Royal in. So if you look at what YouTube is it’s effectively search engine full video with some. Social elements tacked on like likes and comments of it’s not I wouldn’t call it a social platform. First influences a search engine. So what do we do when we go to a search engine like Google where we’re looking for something we often have something that we’re searching for we have an issue that we want to solve a problem that we won’t kind of Coleman nuts. The primary tool that we use and YouTube is no different is just a video full of that. So for example, you know, last year I had an injury during jujitsu Maturan doctor. So I went on THE the some exercises to do that can help the injury to I would not go onto Facebook and look for solution to my my groin injury. This wouldn’t happen. And I think that’s an important distinction. Because like I said when you thinking very tactically about a case what videos who would make him which platforms. You’ve got to bear that in mind, right? If you won’t decree optimal media content. Yeah. I know I distracted the conversation and let us off on a little tangent there, but we were talking about attention. You know, the so the funnel. And so in some ways Facebook is gripe that attention because people are saying, hey, entertain me. Keep me something. That’s flashy. That’s gimme he is exciting. So if I’m going to produce an attention video Facebook is probably not a bad platform for that. Whereas on slightly further down YouTube a bit more about you know, fact, it’s about satisfying problem and curiosity, and you’re in your naturally further down that that buying funnel so different platforms play anymore. Yeah. That’s still say it’s still still the issue with top of the funnel. Because what we won’t be doing through the down the funnel. Typically, another constitutes every kind of busy. But typically won’t people to be going on our website because we won’t conversion bear an inquiry sale subscription, something, right? So we asked to be able to draw people give people a reason to go to to the website.
10:08 – 15:00
So good quality middle of the funnel content, which is the consideration stays, right? So people have done some sun some home with the Dunston research. They understand what that problem is in looking at solutions now, and I think really good quality case study videos, not testimony. But Kate case is a really good assets to to invest in even if you do them yourself. I mean, a want to make sure that. Talk about on this podcast is applicable several news, that’s listening know that everyone has bullets, but you you come to yourself so long as you get the structure, right? And I think the benefit of doing a good quality case today is that it it. Consult of be like a bit of a magic trick in the if you if you do it. Well, you can actually create a repeal between the subject of the case study, which would be client that you service really really well in the happy with the new nickel could story tell in the person watching it. So what you’ve got Stutz that saw the objective. What you want to do is make people feel safe that somebody like me is that a stimulus problem NF had an awesome result by using this particular this particular business, or this particular predatory also this and not solve the crooks of the case study video. Yeah. And it’s econ. Yeah. I was gonna say it’s I think it’s much more compelling using video. A medium for them. Because you know, the typical Saudi is the, you know, two or three pages of stats and long text on a page or scrolling page multiple pages videos. I think of the advantages is passive one and two the other one is you can just put Cy much information into a video without overloading somebody so he can deliver a lot more contents. I’m guessing that’s probably one of the main reasons why videos, I popular right now. Maybe they’re the two main reasons she sort of agree with that. Or am I or am I million miles off with why videos, maybe what then I think? So I’ve I’ve read, you know, in the early days of April, I will hold my hand up and say, I did paper-based PDF case today. And I think. I think it comes down to what we’re trying to do. So you know, what’s it for what we’re trying to do is fundamentally persuade people where the best solution to that problem? And if we’re in the game of persuasion. Stott’s on and data isn’t sways. If it’s very logical. And very rational won’t. What is persuasive stories in the motions? Right. And that’s the edge clear advantage. The good quality video hats because you can stir up emotions you can create report literally within a few seconds. If it’s done correctly, really really economy can be very compelling. Whereas if you’ll using something more data driven it has its place in the sales cycle. But it’s it’s more. It’s more to justify people use logic to justify emotional decision and sales all sales is emotion surgery was amid it’s a post rationalization why purchase that cop because have remarried that brandishes because of it’s not it was entirely driven by the gut not the head. And then I just want wanna ten irrational based when in reality, I’m entirely emergent with my precious decisions. Yeah. I I I saw her is a new Nike ad out of the moment around. And women sport. And I think Serena Williams the voice over for it. And I must have seen it shed ten times. Now on my social made like on Facebook, my personal vice book page, and you can just see people’s comments. It’s like I was crying half. I throw it this. Is it you know, and people just making those comments, and and I watched it. Yeah. Like it’s emotional right from the start. They absolutely Nile it anything yet. That’s exactly what you just express. It’s emotion is a great story aligns with the brand, obviously. But the predisposition to purchasing a particular brand of shoes can be made at that point. There’s no point we’re not he sat there and spoke about, you know. Yeah, they also stopped shoes from rubbing on the tennis court flow. Yeah. That wasn’t mentioned. It was not performing. It was not, you know, they’re even dropped the whole Nike air, and you know, all the springs, it’s now just entirely emotionally lead. How as a founder or someone who may be doesn’t have that autistic finding that body? So you can watch great ad like that guy. That was amazing. I didn’t really consider myself an odyssey in that sense. What’s the best way? To actually go about building that emotion and other causes. I mean, obviously, I could high you April, and you could do it for them. But other other other maybe the axle callsas and things people could do to be a little bit smarter back out of a national storytelling yet.
15:00 – 20:04
So I’d always Tokyo to avoid tax because I I don’t believe in myself. I think I think I’m glad people took night because they all the agencies that produced those videos all just fantastic in this. So. So consistent with the quality. And also the impacts of the videos is as well, I think that absolutely fantastic. The thing about those videos, and we cannot shoot no matter what business where we cannot learn from them. The thing about those videos assist. So on brand. And they the rule the rule. Two nights mission is to inspire athletes all athletes are on the world and they define asleep. As if you have a body that you are not fleet. Right. So that’s what they’re trying to juggle addressable market. If you have a body you’ll pot about. Right. Right. And it’s it’s there why that comes through the imagery the video’s even in the innovation in the products. And if you’ve read shoot oak by Phil Knight, the founder of nyc. No, I haven’t. Yeah. It it was one of the best books. I’ve read in less clears read it last year. And it’s it blew me away. You just understand the the guy that started the company to sell. I mean, that’s be honest commodity because you can buy you can buy them from you know, you can buy them from supermarkets now different different different ruining cheese. He was on a mission. And he really believed he was hit a purpose in really believed him so to any found a li- listening to this even if you work in a really terse technical area, I’m not saying you should prompts aim to create video content is gonna make people crying, but get go back to why you’ll starting why you started what you started. And the mission your own find find your purpose, and then you create content this in line with. I think the whole purpose driven marketing it’s been misunderstood. And. Terribly in the last eighteen months also with people under the Gillette at for example, is a really bad example, actually is a good example of bad mortgage because would’ve sat down with the ad exists. We need to we need to do some purpose marketing and they’ve got it completely wrong. They need to do is go back to their roots really figure out their identity. What is it? They stunned full which equals that brand and create content. It’s tied directly into that. And that within itself is a really strong differentiator when you’re creating video content. That’s a fantastic breakdown of those Gillette ads. I as a marketer for loss of opinion, paces back and forth. But I think if so succinctly explained why greats people is because you look at it on one side you go. It’s a great ad. And it is a great, Ed. But it’s just we don’t believe that. That’s Gillette purpose emission. They went. The rises wearing created to kind of create a better, man. It was you know, what they mission was. But it definitely wasn’t that. Because we’re running on. We saw the Gillette hats from the last twenty years. And that’s what they were that wasn’t the position I would taking so. Yeah, you don’t get to turn around and change you you’ve used right away. So it’s interesting. No, no, nothing kind of a larger Paul logic coming to mate on Gillette from two lights, which have facial hair. If we don’t if we can say will a brand like Gillette’s peppis will mission is that then walked in Wilno. We should be able to even though I don’t, you know, I don’t use Gillette’s raises of seen. I’m on social media. Among among Facebook, watch TV, there should be speaking that to us. It should be. We shouldn’t not know. Fantastic advice, the promo code now is I’m talking to you about this an absolutely he’d get into purpose and storytelling. And then I’ve just thought to myself about video marketing, so I’m gonna I’m gonna make a mental note, we’re gonna come back, and we’re going to do storytelling, and we’re gonna run a whole podcast just on storytelling and get the feeling we could go on for a while. So really back into to video and just staying a little bit on Kohl’s. I’m curious around lengthens moving video, and you know, obviously, they’ve just had it recently that had video, and it seems to be working quite well, some Cain guest. The double question one is how you saying that evolve. And what are your thoughts on the new link team live that apparently is coming out? And how do you think that’s gonna play out? Yeah.
20:04 – 25:02
Well, again, it’s it’s a tactic. Yeah. I think it Lynton video Lincoln live. It’s it’s it’s tough take. And I always think that there’s a danger of being distracted by the newest tactics. When it might not be on on strategy was said earlier was tucked takes around league gonna be useful within specific strategy in a stress strategy is only good in relation to a specific goal. And it’s so the way that we structure I will get about two Minton Promessi, but I need to kind of take a step out. I to make make make sense. So I think what I’ve noticed from we’ve worked with our shares in startup some brownie companies over the year is that a big one of the big differences between startups in my experience in the big businesses is thoughts startups, so busy starting know trying. Get critical mass sales in trying to do everything they come to promote themselves. They forget to strip to their work in terms of goal, which is the overarching Fain strategy, which is a broad approach, which if happens increases chances of hitting that goal and an attack takes which the little steps that you take to to kind of meet strategy Whitson helps you get you go. Now, if if Lynton. Is going to be something a platform where your audience all that’s going to help you execute fulfill strategy than I think it’s gonna be a wonderful wonderful innovation and a wonderful development platform because you know, it’s to be it’s it gives you their contact with people that can really help to influence in the buying process. You can network really well in there. And I think that it could be a really good move and to give the people the embraced platform that need that platform, the tools again to humanize themselves to create that kind of repeal to really develop the relationships in a very human human way, it’s going to be able to irrelevant to somebody that is strongly in the beat seep places prep school Amazon shop props they are selling on Facebook on Instagram shopper fly wherever. And then those seats is it’s not a handle there. But you see the situates. So it’s very contextual. That’s what I’m trying to say. Because I don’t want someone. To listen meets say, oh, it’s a great tool for someone. That’s irrelevant to to go out and try because we’ll that doing then is wasting valuable time on something. That’s just not going to give them any any results. Fantastic advise. I I look I couldn’t agree more. I think it’s a lot of the time in PayPal or potential clients approach may in know, they want some help there often approaching me we tactics to recently that Facebook trickle that link trick in what can we do a little bit more than you just use sort of boil it down you try to turn them around to saying that it’s about the overall strategy. What what are you trying to achieve as much as a couple of weeks on on Instagram? And then you kind of find out, whether it’s, you know, for may I find out whether it’s a client that I really want to work with if they still hung up on the tips of the Drake’s thin, that’s probably not the the the right person. And I think it’s interesting that that’s your approach with video because I think video on the way you articulated his perfect. It’s video is a great lady him to deliver pesonality to live a passion. Create emotion. Because because you can communicate so much information site quickly. And it’s so real to you imagine for most businesses, especially small businesses that those videos a’done person talking to camera or do they actually try to sort of film things film, people slide images in in terms of like, you know, how a lot of small businesses tackling this because I say a lot of businesses will do stock footage stock video and try to incorporate that and try to pace it together and making us video or you saying that the most success is coming from people keeping it real using themselves and not try to reproduce it. Yeah. So we’re in the realm of presentation in style now. And that’s that’s really something that. It has to be a week some of our clients do their own videos. We support them into a thing we say to them. It’s just keep it. Simple. Keep it manageable fisa process you’ll doing so let’s keep it keep it reading really simple and something that’s going to be sustainable. Not just say, you know, if you do it absolutely knock you out for few days. And I need is going to be pulled off doing again. There’s no hard and fast answer. I can’t say that yet, you know, talking to come ROY is going to I’m, you know, a wish, but it’s just it’s it’s such a nuance space old of business is not just walked video marketing. And I think what people need to do is find a style that works for them that they’re comfortable with.
25:03 – 30:00
And then experiment, you know, us as a starting point. And then experiment and. When when when you looking measuring video if you count is one of the least important metrics, it’s never really a KPI. The what is important is engagement that you getting on the on the video? So you could try and experiment with a couple of types of video crops. You’re using stock footage invoice aver will maybe you all talking to come and just experimenting with the move recourse of you know, two or three months. Both approaches have low cost both approaches is a simple to to to do. And what you gotta do is let just really feel your way into it in the sea way getting the biggest response. And then when you’re getting something works, and then you down makes a lot of sense. So if I’m if I’m listening to this center, I’m struggling a little bit in thinking still to daunting. I think definitely need to hire expanding to speak to somebody can help me out. His there some questions that you can provide listeners with that. They can ask someone who that. So basically, they looking to hire someone to help with marketing how? Are there some answers authorities from questions that they can ask that have really helped weighed half the people who know the marketing from the people who have just added to a menu of different things that they can do yet. Totally. So know, the many many many countless numbers video production companies in videographers at very very talented ones about around says is there’s lots of people to choose from. If people just wanting literally just wanting video content the net fine using over for the fine using video production company. If that wanting something that’s going to potentially help them move the needle business that going to include some kind of strategy in meason than video marketing agency, I would suggest is to ask about talking about strategy. So what kind of strategy seem wyking in particular context? Yeah. You can take a look at people’s work as as oppose without some secondary to how a weekend to be. Measuring success these videos, and what are we gonna do if the not hitting if an performing because ultimately any business, whether you’re a startup were very. A very big businesses been going for for for a long time. It’s an investment that you make an investment has to be looked after. So as you would when you’re investing anything, you wanna know how you measuring it. And what are we going gonna do if what we second won’t in isn’t isn’t happening up that advice? I think fought too many companies brief out some form of video creative and get some of that comes back. That’s absolutely beautiful in stunning in Mainz zero to the business. We’ll try no difference to what they’re actually going to achieve. Yeah. The ad looks great. It’s a typically flawless, but it had some actually driven anymore revenue. So that’s fantastic advice. And also, I’m sorry just just to jump in. Because I know that it’s going up to view count again view count an ego really really closely related. I know are full for that all the time. I look I look at the stats like something back into us. We just have to see how many people viewed it. I know. I mean, unless let’s get it straight. I mean, unless the view count is zero then it’s important because he’s you know, doing something, right? And you need to do some more commotion. So the reason I bring this up is because we’ve had clients that said, okay. So we’ve had this production company that said that the that avenues of had millions of us collectively over the last couple of years and not sounds really really impressive. It’s a while. We’re gonna get visa gonna get ambles. And it’s not about the number of us. It’s about the right people what genial content for the right reasons. And then doing something that you want him to do after. So it’s it’s it’s in which the mall strategic thoughtful approach, you can adieu on YouTube is thirty seconds. Roughly, I think view on Facebook is about three seconds at least it used to be. So so I could literally take mama Bowe phone record thirty seconds of making, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Which is what I do kind of. To YouTube pull fifty pounds behind it to boost the post, and I could get a few thousand diesel not overnight. But it’s just gonna be views the loss for three seconds. So what value is content? What value is these adding the win the so-so insignificant? The watching such a small portion of the video it really really is.
30:01 – 35:07
Doesn’t mean anything what encourage people to do is is ask people. Okay. So. What difference if you’ll is is your video content? Major clients. Have you mentioned that in the past is the increase could bosons that you can talk to you about. It’s been an increase in queries. You can talk me about on average. How much of you’ll video content of people watching so percentage of the videos of people watching? That’s there the really meaty questions, which I bet. Eight percent of people are asked what know the answers to unfortunately, because we’re still at quantity time in video marketing. But the the answers that people should not yet. It’s it you’re entirely riot. For some some businesses, particularly if your business to business, and you might have a high value by customer any takes one customer to properly engage with you’ll be content, and he can cover it self and it can be hard to quantify. But for Mehta magic moment is always when someone you speaking to someone you sort of a new business meeting or you think somebody might be on happen. And then they quote you back to yourself because they’ve watched BDO that you’ve done. And then you realize that moment it’s like, oh, I’m gonna win. This like this is why we’ve definitely got a good relationship because whether they were attracted by the video will not the reality is if they watched a half hour episode if you jabbering on on on YouTube, and they’ve sort of listen to the entire episode, and it’s like yohaf Marion GmBH already so. And that’s that’s the value of that kind of content is available can absorb get to know you build a relationship bond. Well before you actually sit down and talk about doing business. So yeah, you know eats. I like to think I think like that. I don’t watch the views, but. A got us. I I still get a little egotistical tickle when I say something. In two thousand guess but credit vice so conscious of time, and and it’s gone really quickly. Because I’ve just I was looking I had so many more questions. I wanted to ask you, I think what am I I think as a last question I want to ask you is this something that you thinking at the moment. Some who you believe that you find almost nobody else agrees with you at the moment. Yes. So there are a couple of things and the first one is this going to what we said about view count and people placing too much emphasis on that. When I say, you’ll view count isn’t important know. You know, get some strange looks and you shake shakes of the head. But that’s fine. Because on the surface of it does make it does make sense on the fifth when you scratch beneath the surface and look things in detail. The not duck so full is appalled. And I think I think the other thing is when people again get too tactical too quickly. So we will have. So we will have. Potential customers come to us and say they’ve go ideas for this video this video in this video, and we talked to him about two in what we do. We find out is no coherent strategy, pinning those ideas together, so even videos works, there would be no discernible positive impact on the business. So. Physically had come to you with almost to fully informed idea about how they want to tactically deliver the marketing campaign when I say much better off coming to you with a strategy in an objective, and then leaving you to work out. Exactly how to execute it that exactly we, you know, we even get decide room times this video needs to through minutes, which is which is crazy when you think about it because it just needs to be as long as it needs to be. You know, you you tell the story in the stop so. Yeah, I I always pushed back combing talking tactically too early. What we need to do is go to the impacts that you will. Video content to make install stall from that. So impacts will go strategy. And then you can we can stop talking about time to vent chest to advice. I must say I’m hearing you explain these things in one of my brain, I’m going this is exactly right. And the other part of my Brian’s going to do that at all charity, you run straight for the tactics as well. He might be a horrendous client, but fantastic. Thank you so much. And I I’m I’m looking at this list of questions that I’ve gotten thinking, I didn’t even get any of those questions. So I’m definitely gonna hit you up to come back on again. I think I’d love delve into the whole storytelling stuff because that was a really interesting tangent. We took this. I’m Cain to do that about for people that are listening, and I sort of. Yes, are like what I may have to say I’d like to know more. What’s the best? Why they either getting contact with you find more of your words of wisdom’s or videos of wisdom’s that you might have. Yeah. Right. So. I own Twitter. Obi on in a space in a little patch of time where I’m not being overactive on. If won’t go question. I always respond. A my handle is at April coats on the school Imia, which is a m I all in its April fruit.
35:08 – 36:36
And if people want to check out our website, it’s just Dewey Toledo agriculture media marketing dot com, and if they send an Email Gertz studio, which will get forwarded to two million again on any questions that people want. They want took expand on anything. Explain anything in more clear way than that’s fun fake. And hopefully, when we when we post here percent, I always posted I linked into your questions jump on the late in because I think as we said route of the stop there the engagements way more important when it comes to marketing so wreck into the judgment on on social media as much as anybody. So I’m gonna thank you so much for your time early appreciated. I know it’s my evening. Your morning, and that’s the one is the internet. We’re not the same place. But we can be actually think you time you wisdom, and I look forward to speaking. Joe again, some point later on this year, you’ll very well. Thank you for having me Jisr. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode. I hope we’re able to provide you with some great marketing ideas, it’ll really help your business as always if you’d like to support me and the show just jump onto Janes or wherever you’re listening to this podcast and write and review those reviews really make a difference and help me reach a broader audience if you’d like to connect the best way to find me on the linked in following me on social media, which is connecting. And if you put ideas for future episodes or your Marketa, can you would like to appear to Peter up beside just hit me up on leaped in as well. I’d be happy to have a chest. Thanks look forward to speaking with you next week.

Instagram success for your business with Gabbi Johnston

Are you paying attention to your Instagram engagement ratio or just the number of followers you have?

In this week’s podcast, I chat with Gabbi Johnston about how to use Instagram to promote your business.

You can listen to the full episode from this page

Find out more about Gabbi’s Instagram management services here

Or just follower her on Instagram here 

With years of social media management under her belt, Gabbi knows the tickings of Instagram like, well, it’s her job! She goes in search for earrings, ceramics, and basically anything that is labelled with ‘Made in Brisbane’, and loves scouting local markets to expand her network of amazing local businesses owners.

Some of the topics we cover include:

  • Engagement is essential for Instagram success
  • 85% of Businesses say Instagram stories are part of their 2019
  • Instagram stories allow users to be ‘real’ in 24 hour snapshots
  • The horrible Instagram follow-unfollow strategy
  • The Pros and Cons of fake followers
  • Engagement rate ratios for success
  • Looking at Uber Eats Instagram success
  • influencer on Instagram
  • The magic 10k follower target


0:00 – 05:04
Instagram now has ever one billion active multi uses around the world with a growth right that far exceeds that our Facebook, Twitter, and Snapchat Instagram is the place that consumers a going to absorb content that looks beautiful. So how can you use Instagram to drive your business forward? What are the tips and tricks in today’s episode we’re going to cover a few of those with expert cabbie Johnston to help you drive your business forward. My name’s Jarod Doyle. And this is the facto podcast where each week we interviewed mock knee expects from around the world to help you drive your business forward. Hi, welcome. To this week’s episode today. I’m super excited to announce that got Kebbi Johnston. Joining us who is an Instagram extraordinaire who is going to guide us through how we can use Instagram to drive out startups and asshole businesses forward, so Gaby thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me, not a problem at all we are in the same state. But as we put ’cause I’m recording remotely because technology is wonderful. And it worked the first time. So technology. Is good. It is going up wags. So we’re in Trump’s trading, and we’ll talk with the standard question. And I think you’ll be answering this one and Instagram’s echoed platform is what can you say for a startup found or are nervous mole business that they can get above and beyond the big brands by using Instagram for their business. Yes. The Instagram is really really personal. And it gives you an opportunity to connect with your audience in a really personal and visual way, which is really important, and it gives you an opportunity to to have those conversations as well end to engage in discussions and things like that. Which is something that a lot of really really big brands sometimes miss because there is so much happening on the accounts that I guess you can really get to know your audience in a really unique y on Instagram. I love tip about engaging discussion isn’t that such big brands they constantly shouting by what they’re doing. So that’s a criteria. So that’s that’s for the found or the end of us. Business to actually engage engage in a conversation with people are the brands or did anyone who’s out there? And with it ordinance is really really important. So letting that wouldn’t know that they’re in that convincing and then getting involved, and so that might be on your purse or it might be on some of the follow his purse wa or other brands as well that might complement at you’ll brand as well. So just kinda getting engaged in getting involved. So I’m curious to know, what kind of misconceptions do you find or an Instagram when people come to you? And they’re asking for advice where they business on Instagram. What you find the common misconceptions? They have about how Instagram works for a business people generally really afraid of the Instagram algorithm. They kind of hear that big would and they get really spooked at about it. But at the end of the day, it’s actually not that scary. And if you read about it and kind of listen to podcasts about it. And all of that. You’ll learn the algorithm is actually working full you not against you. That’s something really important to remember. So I don’t really know what the Instagram algorithm is what what what is that? How does it affect my business? Well, the Instagram algorithm. Ultimately, tyrod ties is personal purse above branch posts. So if you’ll yelling out to the world that your t shirts currently twenty five percent off Instagram’s probably not gonna show that a lot in people’s news fades. But if you show your one of your customers, wearing your taste shirts. I it’s more likely to promote that and push that up to the top of the news feeds because it’s something personal in. It’s something that people will likely to engage in. Okay. So so in this algorithm. So this is the algorithm that decides what is going to be the to open. I open up Instagram. What’s gonna be the top of my fade? What’s going to be the of my fate because it’s not time specific and used to be a time log, but it’s no longer in time. Log is it. Yeah. It used to be a time. Log and that was great. Now, it’s changed a little bit. But ultimately, it looks into the types of things that you’ll likely to engage in. So if you really really like rice ’cause at you’ll Molin likely going to see a lot of rice caught parse at the top of your fade. So it’s going to pick up what you engage with the Merced. And then show you more of that. So that is why it’s really really important to know your audience, so that you can get to the top of your newspaper and get them engaging with you did notice I am I was recently talking at the university here around mattresses quality mattresses sleeping, ducking cetera, and unless Audrey engage more with their posts. It’s like all the mattress brands appeared on Instagram was kinda like you wanna mattress where all hit is Ellen. I guess that’s a good technique. Then isn’t that? If you want to see how the algorithm behaves is do it as a user like change, your Poseidon change, your personality a little bit and watch the way Instagram tries to adult to what you do like now. Yeah. Definitely even when you’ll notice that if you ever have to buy a car or anything, suddenly all you will see is car ads and papal promoting Qods, sir. Definitely. That’s definitely something to think about from us appoint of you and a business point of view cry.
05:05 – 10:04
So other tips that you give people. I mean, there’s a lot to consider some simple things people can do that again increase the chance of that brand Instagram posts appearing little axle things that you can teach people or is it really just being real being real is a really really important one. But definitely engaging but also encouraging other people to engage with you. So asking questions like what are you up to this weekend? All let us know which one you prefer this color ship Luo red prompting people in giving people a coal to action is really really good invaluable. When it comes to engagement fantastic. And that could it gets back to the point you made before which is it’s about a communication. So if every post you make is you just chat him at something can people might look at it. And then pass on that’s entirely different to studying a conversation, or maybe even a debate that engagement that’s a windfall Instagram, and therefore it’s going to help to be a win for your brand. Dr exactly that’s exactly it fantastic. So I’m curious is there a particular area on Instagram that’s super hot right now as someone who lives in breeds Instagram? What’s the thing that everyone’s like trying out at the moment? Instagram’s stories Instagram stories is sorry big right now. And those actually a study done that says that about eighty five percent of businesses have decided to incorporate stories into their strategies in two thousand and nineteen. So it’s really really big. And it’s really important to jump onto the stories to make sure that you’ll kind of getting amongst it. Okay. So to the the infrequent Instagram us up maybe in like may. What is an insult? What makes it Instagram? Sorry. What’s the story? And how is that different to a post? Yes. So you come up, and you may news fade, and you that’s when you doing the mindless scrolling and everything like that. But stories is this new fate or I guess it’s been around for a couple of years now. I’m ended allows Instagram uses to be really real in pursed Firdaus of behind the scenes end what they’re up to. And they’re twenty four Alice. Snapshots, sir after twenty four hours, they disappear, but they really really useful to kind of give your audience in insight into who you are as a brand in as a person end develop more of that connection, which might be missed in the main newsfeed. There’s a bit of a flow for this as well as I was e e can you know, it’s about a the sequence of images Endo videos or combination of both. It can be doing. Yes, it has video is this fighters you can put in music say can do links to your Spotify account. You can also put gifts and woods, and you can. Ask questions and put up Paul’s said, they’ve made it really really use a friendly end made it really easy for you to engage with people and get people to engage with you. Which is awesome fantastic. Does the Facebook ad platform support stories as well. Or is it something that you find with my clients, they using it as an organic way to sort of rage potential customers. It’s definitely organic at the moment. But you can put ads in stories, which is really cool. And a lotta people on doing it at the moment. Sorry, if you can do it, and you have the main studio at its would be definitely something to jump onto as soon as possible on. It means that it will come up in between other people’s stories. So it’d be really really good. If you could fantastic. So is there an example, you can give us of a big brand, maybe even a small brand. But someone who’s doing this really well at the moment, but maybe we can even follow and kind of get that experience. And so to say, oh, if I follow it doesn’t matter how relevant to me is someone you can give us it’ll make me learn I guess from copy from the best that you would recommend abor eight. Is doing Instagram stories Instagram ads really well actually end kind of taking the really big ad campaign. That goes on at the moment tonight. I’m aiding and putting it into stories in that specific story platform end. Okay. And is that so that’s Uber. It’s doing is at the same as the TV ads. I see where they get the celebrities to share what they’re eighteen and that’s putting the Gorey’s. Yes. So they taking a similar concept, and then making it really personal as targeting people again, they know the knowing their audience in really really targeting them fantastic. Now, what strikes me about that ubereats campaign with the celebrities? They’ve gone showing that the ordering says no more than I can see how that actually translate stained Ceram stories brilliantly. You also saying that stories is some way way Instagram influences influences on Instagram. It’s anonymous like the big thing they using stories a lot to promote brands as well. Jeff innately definitely end. I’m particularly with Instagram influences with more than. Ten thousand followers. You can also do the swipe up function, sir influences can be like, I’m wearing this t shirt swipe up to show and by this one as well. So Instagram’s making it easy for people to just jump straight into a shop or an article or podcast from the Instagram story. Rutta ten thousands, the magic numbers for basically, you’re not really influence if you haven’t got ten thousand followers, apparently, that’s what Instagram saying.
10:05 – 15:09
A love that. Okay. So that’s that’s a big thing. I’m curious when we think about influences, it’s always good to delve into that just a little bit and understand ’cause they’re awesome lows. I mean, I don’t know can move. None of us are giving legal advice navy Gabby or I is this is not legal advice. Bought if you’re going to engage in influenza, what are the kind of things what’s the standard way? Now that you disclose that on Instagram. I think they influence is actually have to explicitly say this is an ad all and they have to use hashtag add if they are promoting any products. So Instagram’s really knuckling down on them and making sure that it’s really clear that everything that they do when they’re promoting something is said, yeah. No, it makes it makes a lot of sense. You you it’s the hashtag ad. I guess when I first heard about Instagram pushing this kind of disclosure, I thought is it going to kill it influences. And then you realize could true influence or it doesn’t matter. This is what we know you’re still borrowing from their brand. So it still makes a lot of sense to do that. So it makes makes it huge. Humana sense. Always curious. I mean, it’s an interesting platform Instagram because people it’s different to Twitter up this to be an awful lot of random following that occurs on Instagram and put it that way. Read seems like a lot of people follow a lot of people or even made like I highly ever a price on Instagram, and I get some really strange people following me. Yeah. I assume this is a strategy. Right. You could call it a strategy. Definitely. A look at this. There’s this big thing going around a cold fuller unfamilar, which people follow you to get you to follow them back in. Then they quickly unfold you, which is really unfair. An Instagram’s picking up on that which is really good and starting to minimize that as much as possible, but you might find that some of those really random follow is that you’re getting at ulcer butts, which is also something that Instagram starting to pick up on. So people are starting to Haya Botts to go out and follow a hell bunch of people end in return. They’ll get really instant engagement, but it’s not very long lasting nor. Is it old Ganic? Sorry. If you’re thinking of incorporating butts into your strategy, probably daren’t, maybe maybe four years ago, if you had to go into it, you might be done. Well, maybe maybe. Is your opponents are I get the vanities audit? Yeah. That’s an easy one. Right. If you want ten thousand followers to pretend that you’re important. That’s great. You know, take a box, whatever fills you boats from a business point of view. I can still see an argument to a degree that if you were to build up in a home in new business starting with full followers is probably looking little bit lame. So I guess, although I’m sure you’re gonna say it don’t recommend it. But I guess there is some logging lace getting a few hundred follow us to stop is that look there is bit at the end of the day. If you’re a business, and you’ve got Instagram you won’t you follow is to eventually turn into paying customers. So why would you want to I guess employees those two or three or four hundred followers when you know that they never gonna turn around and pay you’ll you’ll content oil products. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I wanted to, you know, I’m guessing we’ll guest when this which workout Instagram algorithm. But you would imagine that the ratio of engagement to your followers probably helps as well. So if. If I have ten thousand followers on one hundred real followers willing. Instagram’s is are probably got a really low engagement with my audience probably doesn’t even help you reach those one hundred engage people is that true. Or is that just me guessing about one might be doing? That’s so true. And that’s one of the main things that we try and wacko on as well that whole rice Yar. So if you’ve got fourteen thousand follow isn’t only thirty people lacking your things every time you I that’s a big red flag and again Instagram starting to pick on that pickup on that as well in it’s trying it’s registering the posting quality content or your follow his on quality. Sorry. It’s really dangerous to have a really low ratio so focusing on that right sharing more than you. Actual follow in number is really important fantastic events before better. Now, not my terribly low Instagram follow. Myself. They’re highly engaged. So I would I’d love to talk about one of them talk about now is if someone’s so we know what I know what you do businesses. Hi, Gabby win the super busy. And you know, when you run a business and almost everyone listen to this is going to run a business. I mean, they doing the bookkeeping they’re doing the marketing that doing products and sales and everything they need to end. So Instagram becomes one of those things. I know I need to do it. But I haven’t got time. So you can hire someone like Gabby. So that’s obviously who I’m going to recommend. But my question to you is what’s the best kind of question that someone could ask you what anybody else to find out whether they with this person really knows Instagram other a couple of questions that a business owner could ask a potential social media manager to find out whether they really know there is the grand from their face spoken. Their follow us on Twitter because you know, I feel like there’s a lot of people at that tattoo themselves as social media market as manages and experts now, so I’m QC on the listeners with a few it’ll tricks to catch people off guard.
15:09 – 20:08
Yeah. Fischel I think first and foremost, definitely look at this -ocial media because if social media isn’t doing very well in that ratio that we just talked about isn’t very high. Then what’s to say that they going to do any better on you’ll social media? But I guess ulcer get them to have a quick look at your current social media and see what they recommend and see if the things that they’re suggesting have any substance to it in or is it just kind of made up of the top of the head. So that’s a really good one to give them as well. Do love that kids. It’s one no one’s ever going to high main look off their Instagram look terrible. But like the thing someone might high today linked in. So yet really it’s a really good to be conquered arrive via south how you ever gonna get a ride for somebody else. Exactly brilliant. So I’m wondering if there’s a his a super easy Trico tape, something you can give listeners at the moment that you said to say, it has one thing. One thing you can give to somebody incite to do these one thing. There’s one thing is one thing, right? Instagram. What what would that be? Well, we’ve already talked about engagement but engagement is. So so important, and I would not stop talking about engagement and the importance about it on Instagram. I guess the other thing is focusing on as well. So if you’ll again, making t-shirts and your tesa clientele is anyone from kids that go to school to people in a retirement home. Then you’re going to struggle on Instagram because you’re not going to make content that’s tailored for a specific audience. But if you have a really really specific audience in you, nor your name really, well, you’re going to find it easy to create that content and then connect with people in that audience on Instagram Francesca, golfing buds of Anton, west perfect advice on all facets of the business nation down and finding that one audience and being absolutely brilliant. Perfect for them. You get the chance to find a bigger audience at a secondary audience light awry, but if those audience, right and and get them on board. I love the how do you see Graham changing? I mean, we’re recording this at the start of twenty nine teen. So maybe over the. Of this year. What what do you think the changes we’re gonna say Instagram while as the white people conduct businesses conduct themselves on Instagram like the debate for the rest of this year? I think it’s just going to get a lot more real with Instagram cracking down on butts in people that are doing that fuller on fully strategy. I think that Instagram’s just going to value real content in real authentic content. A lot more this year. So I think focusing on that in focusing on showing your customers who you are rather than showing them what specials you’ve got on is going to be really important really valuable on social media on Instagram as appoints talking about telling customers, what silos you’ve gone is. There a ratio. I mean because at the end of the day used to one zero products is there a ratio or is? It was the trick to blend. The two things together is is the trick with Instagram to put the product in the service into the post, but making the post social in its own, right? I’m not quite sure what the strategy. Is there? Look out really really successful Instagram a. Count singer kind of incorporate both of them find a way to incorporate their products into a really social I, but they say kind of every full full fifth purse should be sales. He pursed. But making sure that the majority of them are engaging in kind of more conversational than anything else. I did notice someone recently recommended a jewelry business. It doesn’t make any sense for me where they said they do this. Well, and I noticed they they really good. Putting what appears to be prices essential. What it is. But the he’s into the click on the product or the jewelry in the post, and then it pops up, and you can actually go through to that product. What what’s that cold and had a businesses Bill but into their Instagram strategy say making Instagram shop -able is so important, and I would recommend it for anyone that has a product by business, and it’s exactly that making it really easy for people to be scrolling down. And suddenly see a watch that they really like, and they can click on the furhter, and it’ll take them straight to the shop. So that there’s a bit of behind the scenes. Things that you can do through shop a fi- and connecting that with Instagram end. That will does make it really easy feel customers because if they have to click on more than one or two things you gonna lose them really quickly. So yeah, it’s the easiest way to kind of get people from being just a follow up to your being a paying customer. Does it only work we shop afire or is it just set up to work easily show performance wack easily wish up five? Okay. So any technically any business could do it. It’s just if you’re on shopper fi- it’s going to be a holidays you have to make that happening. And there’s no Tim thousand follow a limit to get. So follow is if you wanted to. Fantastic. Okay. So planning ahead. Let’s imagine. It’s a business in their thinking. Now, dude wanna do Instagram on a Bill that my strategy. What’s the timeframe in the time commitment like how how long does the strategy tight before you start to see some kind of reward and how much effort you need to be putting a realize it’s going to it’s Halloween is a piece of string.
20:11 – 25:07
Let’s let’s let’s all go back to my jewelry example. Let’s just imagine. I was launching a new line of jewelry. It’s a small line up on. I follow as a just finish shopper fly store. I’m pretty sure Instagram’s where I wanna be at how long how long have I gonna be playing on Instagram before I start to see any kind of commercial return on that. I think that if you can dedicate probably between. Half an hour to an hour a day on engagement or every couple of days on engagement. You’ll start to see a load of engagement back really really quickly. I’m that’s not to say that you’re going to say twelve thousand follows in the next four weeks, but you’ll start to see that growth in it might just be a couple of hundred follow a week to begin with. Or it might only be fifty follow is awake. But you’ll find that. If you do that engagement, and you you really put out quality content as well. You’ll find that at Lafayette to engagement back and you’ll find the people actually sharing your person really lacking it full the products that it is rather than just following because you’re another account Ryan. So we need kicking off for through in his there’s a theme like your advises various have a conversation. So you haven’t got an audience so engage with other people start the conversation. And then he kind of I guess people will wear communicate is by nature. Aren’t we saw? Someone south token to me, I’m probably gonna talk back. And then next thing, you know, you’ve got a new friend. On instagram. Okay. Exactly. I love that. So okay. So you could start engaging with people, I guess in theory, if you start engaging with someone has the right audience, you never know you could actually turn them into a customer. So it’s about finding that right audience as well. So finding people that would tend into paying customers as well. Fantastic. So thinking about that, you know, we’re moving away from followers as a metric Masan talk, more back home. And so if I’m trying to sit I guess KPI’s is spur hush thing decided, but what are the kind of metrics. What what do I want to be looking at to know that I’m doing well on Instagram? What are the kind of metrics and KPI’s I want to be setting myself? I wait, particularly focus on engagement and reaches. Well, sir engagement is the people that a liking commenting and sharing your purse and the rate is the amount of people that can actually see your purse. So the more engagement the more people that a lacking in commenting on your stuff, the more people are going to see it, and that’s a really important thing. Because then they’re potential customers in that the that makes a lot of sense. So so reach against rages that K thing, right? So having lots of people having conversations, and you’re gonna get that extended rage. And if if people are commenting engaging what are the chances of that? They follow us and people. Engage. We are going to say that post as as. That happened on Instagram or is that more of a or of a Twitter Facebook phenomenon it definitely happens on Instagram. Sorry, you doing that? And also using hashtags people can now fuller hashtags so finding what has times you’ll ideal clientele is using and following. And then using that as much as you can is another way to increase that reaches. Well. That almost lost point. Because I find hashtags on Instagram a non like Lincoln’s gonna Josten corporated hashtags back. Facebook has them a little bit Twitty uses them, probably the Muslim Twitter might even created the concept or the ones that really pioneered it Instagram uses a crazy for the hashtags doesn’t really make a difference in the business. And is that can you hashtag too much. Can you go is there like pay cash tag? Where you just go. For me. I find sometimes people’s price just look overly needy. ’cause they’ve got thirty hashtag house. Is there a strategy? He with hashtags, that’s the standard practice said. They say you should have a really good mix of really specific hashtags in at general hashtags that still to do with your industry. Sorry. If you have got your jewelry making business in you’ll starting up your new line using hashtags like Brisbane, jewelry makers and Brisbane creatives and things like that relevant. Yo pursed is really going to increase that region increase the amount of people that can see you’ll parse Hawkeye and is up because people following hashtags zora’s because if you’re engaging with hashtags of a similar story parts of the similar hashtag that Instagram’s lock throws in randomly. How does how does that work say people fuller hashtags a lotta people such hashtags as well. So someone might be looking for a particular necklace in Brisbane. So if they look up on Instagram Brisbane jewelry than yours will hurt flea. Pop up, sir. It’s just about reaching. Audience’s weather at in thinking about what they might be thinking about in getting to them this or thinking ahead friends house to brilliant Gubbay. If people have listened to this episode, and I think themselves are really like, ABBIE. And I I wanna talk to her about running my company’s Instagram page. What’s the best way for them to to find in in contact you? And I’m guessing Instagram’s one of the options absolutely one at Gabby Jay digital otherwise my website.
25:07 – 26:19
Gabby J dot com is a great place to find me as well in Radel about fantastic. Thank you so much. I have learnt more probably highlighted to anyone who listen to this. How little I know about Instagram which is not good. When you try to sell yourself as a marketer. It’s been fantastic. I’ve low into lot I still got more questions, but I’m going to have to save them for a mid level advanced conversation, maybe in six months time with you. Thank you so much time. Thank you so much for the advice. It was absolutely golden. And I look forward to speaking with you again soon. Thank you so much. It’s been great is. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode. I rep and provide you with some great marketing ideas, that’ll really help your business as always if you’d like to support me and the show just jump onto chains or wherever you listen to this podcast, and right and reviewed those reviews really make a difference and help me reach a broader audience if you’d like to connect the best way to find me. Of course, he’s on linked in following me on social media or just connecting. And if you could ideas for future episodes or your Maka, and you would like to appear in a feature up beside just hit me up on late in as well. I’d be happy to have a chest. Thanks luck, Allah. Ford is baking the next week.

How can you improve your copywriting today?

On this episode of the Fractal Podcast, I interview Murray Barnett from The Creative Writer.

We cover why modern copywriting is for an active reader, and what an active reader is
The importance of making your content searchable
How modern copy is clickable & scrollable and accessible
and why to write to a persona and make your copy personal

Did you know you can make visually intimidating copy? I didn’t until I spoke with Murray, this is a major tip and one I’ve taken forward.

We also discuss how the savvy modern consumer does not want to be advertised at, they want to find information.

Murray shares a great tip on getting over writer’s block and he also explains why age is an advantage in copywriting – sneak peek – wide and deep life experiences is copywriting gold.

Episode Quote: “For your copywriting to have any power, you need to create a relationship between the person writing and the person reading”

Podcast Transcript Below

00:00:00 – 00:05:12
Make it simple. Make it memorable. Make it inviting to look at and make it fun to read the immortal copywriting advice from Leo Burnett. The founder of Leo Burnett company and creator of iconic advertising ideas, like the mole Berman now, you might not consider itself a copy run up. But if you’ll the founder of his thought up that’s just one of the many hats, you’re gonna have to wear. Welcome to the Franks Kosta his Jerry Doyle. Doc gates from around the will help you become better. Lock the yours. Hi, and welcome to this week’s episode and this week, we’re going to be entirely focused around copywriting, and helping you become a better coffee Baraja with you want to or not you need to be as a founder of a start up and this week we joined by Murray Bennett, do is the creative writer from the creative Raja dot com. Today, you Mary thank you so much for joining us Jared. Pleasure to be with you. It’s a fun topic for me because it’s an odd form that ever become earthy tat. But it’s something that everyone who runs a company or earns a company ultimately going to have to have that copyright a hat on every now, and then like whether they want to not that speaker copywriters, I’m excited to extract some of your wisdom and hopefully add onto the listeners. So they become better copyright is. And ultimately run better businesses. So this should be fun. Well, I’m trying to help people with running businesses. Let’s let’s let’s go fantastic, sir. I guess to get started. And to set the frame really token to business is in founders. Are we want to get a sense of what the biggest differences between say found doing their own copywriting? Oh, maybe outsourcing and hiring hopyard. Would it be company might be able to do in higher professional like yourself? What are you? What do you see as being the biggest differences in the way that that’s fine? They conducted. But also the advantages and disadvantages eight. Each of the different options have ROY. We’ll I I would say that the biggest difference, of course, would be income or the amount of money that you can put towards the copywriting that you need to do. Of course, if you’re a startup, I’m you may not have a very big budget. So you’d be looking at doing more of it yourself or even all of it yourself, whereas big business would be. Potentially hiring a big coffee running which could charge hundreds of thousands of dollars a year a marketing campaign. So I think the biggest difference is income and the ramifications that come from that. But that being said, I think that I can give some help to stop people with little oh now incomes spend on copywriters and give them some ideas that the content that they come up with is going to be at least effective. He makes a lot of sense. I mean against the the scary thing for a fan of his thought as you rightly pointed, it has a lot less money is that fair that they just can’t compete when it comes to create copied by con compared user his urine area where the owner of the founder of a company possibly can compete in copy with a seasoned professional is there any kind of area where that the have a competitive advantage. Or is it really a case of actually the expense tend to win through when it comes to copy writing. Well, of course, just because you high someone a lot of money doesn’t necessarily mean again to get results. But. I think one of the best things that inside to a found a with a little or no income to spend on copywriting is to talk about exactly what the relationship is between the writing that the raiders saying and the Rita if you look at guy back to English farmers school. For example, you think of traditional rules of of how texts works in one of the basic traditional rules is communication involving text. Requires a Rawda in a rhythm. Kind side when you’re communicating you’re in using spatial, you’re using texts. So I went into text you’ve got Rodman Rada if you’ve got vocal you’ve got listener. In speaking everybody, basically, understands the other important rule that you learn in school is that the rod or is the active role because they creating the language and the raiders the passive role because they understand the ledge or say that traditional rules shown in the digital world that will get ten on its head because in the digital world people who’ve you text online than or raiders they use. And when you’re an online user rather than being the passive role of just understanding language. You actually have an active role rather than a passive role. So if a startup Fanta can get their head around how these traditional rules turned on the head and follow some basic points that I’m getting dwelt launch shortly. That’s a very very good white get star. When it comes to running content that you need to raw. And when you say call this the the raiders activists because a lot of this content is in formats, where it’s social media, and they’re able to comment and becomes a communication rather to one directional pacem information, or is it something different about picked up that that can be part of it.
00:05:12 – 00:10:03
But when I say active role when they’re being uses they searching, the content they clicking through on content the scrolling on the content. They are accessing at in certain mediums that they liked to excess it inside rather than just being in a passive role. When you’re receiving information. You are a user has an active role in in if you like actively seeking out what it is you wanna find? So you are searching that’s an active role your clicking through on links. You’re you’re you’re you’re a user with an roll your scrolling up and down in deciding what you want to read your. Accessing information that you are looking for in the way that you want to do it. So this is all inactive all if you if you’re reading like, a Brian shore poem more magazine article year rated from start to finish. That’s the general why the win off to rate whereas people, for example in website jump here. And there they scan they skim the jump from point to point, and I can thickly turn away from something if they don’t like it. Whereas if you looking at a book, you’d probably great at least a few pages sentence off, the before you decide whether you wanna stop reading potentially whereas a website, for example, you might say the average amount of Thomas three seconds, the the people used to decide whether they want to stay there. So very very active role with with the not not with them being a user rather than a radio makes a lot of sense. I I must admit I had didn’t occur to me like that. And then I think about myself today, I was trying to work out what the standard image size Ovidio sizes for linked in video. And of course, found up high. Age. I didn’t Radel the stuff of the drive down. Got the information. They needed out of the middle of that page grabbed at kind of lift, and I guess g made by activists not just may reading top to bottom in the the way that the English language is always been left to up to bottom it much more. Again. It’s also made with my thumbs moving through the pages. And I’m cutting pasting. So yet makes a lot of sense skimming and scanning techniques that you use. Right. So I guess I guess for the person who’s cl- like the the fat of accompany his close to their product their advantages that idea that they kind of understand the use case understand why someone might be searching for that the content. They provide answers within that content. How to provide that Nick contextual sense rather than for example, copyrighted you might be given a brief and they writing it out of context. And so that’s possibly the context is probably one of the biggest advantages that someone is doing their own copywriting because they have to as you pointed out a has a slight advantage. But yet I think like oh professions. You know, you you like to think you’re the professionals again. To stand head and shoulders in most cases of the rest, so hit make sense, you’re passionate event, your topic in that can come through on your running. And then you’ll be able to give an authentic message because it’s coming directly from you about your product does. But the the the number one thing that I wanted to get across seas. If you come at it coming in from the perspective of what you might call traditional rules of writing. Then you’ll gang to file the only way that you can succeed as a founder in rotting your own content is to get your head around the idea that the national do rules now longer reply in that you go digital will rules rather than the traditional rules? You learned in school. And if you can get your head around that Dan, you have every chance of being successful with your content. Whereas if you don’t get your head around that you have no chance that’s fantastic bit more. I mean can can you break down. What some of these new digital rolls off at you. You’ve related to the first one I’d say is that content in the digital world. Is you searchable? So every word that you write has to have an SEO strategy. And you could learn about basic SEI strategies, you need to have Ron SEO company to get basic idea. If you if you have a would would press like, which which a lot of people currently have WordPress for examples, you can look at Utah royals look at ways of incorporating SEO into that you can do long tail keyword searches with Google incorporate that, but you have to make sure that you do it seamlessly not. So that standout. So that everybody can see. That’s that’s looking funny you’ve got to sort of seamlessly incorporate that into the text, and so you get a high ranking. So it does need to be searchable. So that when people want to find you they can find you. So the next one is click -able, you you need to have links external links internal links it needs to be scroll -able. So you use things like headings subheadings. What else seemed dance? You can use bullet points while print a Calix things that distinguish the texts you can sort of scan a route MAURICE really feels like a big one for me.
00:10:03 – 00:15:06
I’ll do spend a lot of time fleet through to the answer. And then I’ll read that section. So I get good advice. And the last one is that needs to be accessible, which means you need to put it on platforms that your ideal prospect, or why deal client is going to. There’s no point in putting a whole heap of stuff on Facebook. If your ideal customer or client is not going to Facebook. Then then it’s a waste of time and money, so you need to find the platforms or the mediums which they using and then put content with I can find it on those media fantastic that goes against the median dictates the the length of that content in the turn of that content as well. Well, of course, there there there are there are roles about that, of course. But the tone should be suitable to the coin that you’re that you’re running to another key tip is. Never never never never ride to everybody at the same time. Because if you tried to run to everybody you end up running into no one. So it needs to be personable. It needs to be intimate talking to picture the one ideal prospect of corn in your head and brought to that person directly. And then you have a good chance of building a report and making a connection. That’s actually getting the bold them to you. And that’s I think that’s that’s sound advice because his tour across all marketing often, mocking strategies with the creation of up a sign of that you wanna market to and you give that a signer a name, and that way, you’re able to talk to the individual person because at the end of the day, we’re human beings. Right. So we converse with people not stats lodge groups, and I often I often present Poseidon as part of a marketing strategy and the most common pushback, I get is that you know, when Odal every person’s differentiate concert lump, everyone into one designer and the way I think about that. Now says. Well, I think about all the great love songs that have been written and great love songs written to a broad massive people though written for one person. It’s just that the broad massive PayPal pull something out of that story and it works because it was written for one person. Not because it was written for four hundred people. Right. I mean, maybe that’s over glorifying what we’re calling copywriting. But it is. It’s it’s, you know, writing love songs running copy. It’s the same thing you ride to a person and the emotions going to strain. So I think that’s that’s fantastic advice. Thank you. Intimate intimate and personal names that the person on the other end that’s reading feels that that your your speaking just directly to them. You’re having a conversation. They’re getting to know you then they like you then they trust you. So if you go with the intimate and personal than you’re more likely to get ongoing clients that are getting to y from you perhaps for a long period of time animals, I may be giving referrals in the process. But let me just go back to the the scroll of a point that I was saying before I think very very important Bryce is visual intimidation. If it’s visually intimidating people are going to switch off. So if you’ve got ways to sort of not have big bunches of texts that’s gonna be intimidating and sort of make it more short paragraphs with two to three lines dot points. All ball ROY telex than it’s not visually. Intimidating and then people are going to respond better. So you want to avoid being visually intimidated, and I think that’s a very important concept to get across. I love that. I’ve never thought of describing it that way. But it’s so true. You know, if you if you look at a big bucket angry tech staring at she just think, that’s you know, that’s going to be hard work. And especially if you’re on at my all final tablet, if you’re on a computer, you can probably get away with a little bit more of blocks of text. But if you’re on my the boys these days people don’t want to try to digest or go through big long blocks of text. So if you think it’s visually intimidating on a on a computer screen. It’s even move visually intimidating on mobile devices and people are using my bowl. The boys is more and more which means that you’d go to be more careful about this. Stroll lable concept using subheadings indents short paragraphs and so on. So it’s not visually intimidated fantastic. I love it. Great advice. So Murray, I’m Cain to find out in your weld of copywriting. What’s hot right now? What a copyright is talking about him. What are they focusing their their? Attention on. Okay. That’s a good question in the last few years. The concept of what we call inbound marketing has become more and more to the full. So the paper. Yes. Yes, they have. And then a lot of other people have sort of gotten onto the bandwagon. It’s become a very mainstream term. Now, you’re on spot was the one that sort of initiated by the people who’ve never heard of inbound marketing before what exactly is it essentially modern consume? Is there a lot more discriminating when it comes to what they think about when they going through the process the boys journey of of of of thinking about purchasing and inbound marketing means they have control over the information that they’re trying to get so that they can make an informed choice.
00:15:07 – 00:20:04
So the the savvy modern consumer doesn’t want to be advertised that they wanna find information so that they can make a choice based on their own opinion. And that’s what inbound marketing is if you look at traditional TV advertising, that’s outbound marketing so that is interruption by saying drop you’ll life. It’s unsolicited. But of course, MC. Donalds Nike or some of these big companies. They can get away with that. Because they’ve got a brand. So people don’t feel very interrupted too much perhaps equals into familiar brand and its popular rand, and that’s fine. But for a lot of other businesses people are sick of being edba toys that night while the going for their own information. So inbound marketing is more, your blogs, and blogs is probably the number one way of going with inbound marketing, and you’re looking at trying to earn people’s interest rather than trying to buy it. So the big new hot thing right now is inbound marketing people are getting sick of what is generally cooled direct response marketing or direct response copyrighting because people often in in trying to make something really really I have an X factor. It becomes a bit outlandish or it becomes a bit too long by this white pill and dropped fifteen kilograms in two days or less. It sounds like shonky used car salesman and people that seek of that kind of really really full on direct response marketing. Now, I’m not saying that there’s no place for that. I think that you’ve got find your sweets flip. And I would argue that you do need elements of direct response marketing in copywriting, but not necessarily the full on that was popular site ten fifteen years ago. Yeah. Fantastic advice, I’m curious just to. I guess trains tax a little bit here. And and speak for myself, which is often find I get Arcus what’s termed as ride as block in. It’s probably the thing that you hear is the biggest hurdle, but most Fridays need to get over is that we maybe occasionally run into riders block. Do you have any tips or techniques or tricks of paper can use that gonna help them get over the idea of just staring at a blank page and not knowing what to do next wrote his block is everybody gets it from time to time. I’d I’d K who says that they died if they say that they don’t they lawing every Rawda vices wrought his block from time to time to a greater or lesser extent. I think the best thing that I can say to you is if you have rod is block, and your foundering you’re trying to ROY about something to do with business perhaps you could start off by rotting just about something that you’re interested in. So if you’re interested in school or if you’re. Interested in shopping, or whatever it is that you’re interested in Troy running a few Lauren’s about why you’re interested in that. And you you start to feel passion, and you start to feel the flow of of because it’s something that you’re interested in and because it’s it’s Loyd hotter than because it’s not to do with business the stress with potentially be less than once you get into that kind of flow in that kind of environment. If you like self imposed environment, then you could maybe transfer over to the business side, and because you’re already in sort of a flowing comfortable environment that will put you in a better position to stop writing about your business side. Maybe you can spend five ten fifteen minutes running about something. That’s a hobby Nystrand nine drama. Does something that you’re using is fun to you and write down a few lawns of why you’re passionate about it. And then actually you can try to transfer the same thoughts about. You’re passionate about business. Why warm suggesting a homey because you’re passionate about the Hobie? You wanna be passionate about your business? You want to show that you’re passionate about your business? Because if you believe in your product or service that other people will as well and sign if you can train them of that passion from your hubby to your business. That’s a good thing. And you’re already in a good mind frame because you’ve already started writing in your order into a flow, and if you can sort of flow on from that into your business that would be a good technique that all it’s just I really like them advise on I’m to apply that myself now instead of think I’m posing his game. I meant to write about something else. Something unrelated get into the brain the cable and everything’s sought to flow and then switch back into business mode and safe it continues. Fantastic. It’s like it’s starting to with. Sollers without without stretching. So if you think about if you just stop running cold it it’s it’s difficult to get moving. But if you do some stretching beforehand, that’s that’s the way to make the exercise more effective than I think that’s a good analogy that that one of the fantastic. So let’s say I do that. I’m still struggling I’m not really happy with my copywriting side. It myself. Do you know what I need to do? I need to hire a copyrighted into find somebody who can help me to do this bit better.
00:20:04 – 00:25:00
Or maybe it’s not my passion lies GMT tips for people out there who are looking to hire copywriter that could be on one of these could be on a freelance dot com, or it could be meeting a person to employ that company. But I was fined if you’re in an industry, you probably got some secret questions that you now if you could offset the buzzer on the right tracks are money, you can share some advice around hiring a great copywriter. Well, of course, copywriting is probably the biggest disparity in in rights that you can possibly imagine for any industry in the world because low in people who often high school or universe. City students want is you twenty dollars an hour. And then there’s highfalutin copy rod is that will famous that my child you hundreds of thousands of dollars for a campaign. So I kind of think of any industry where the difference between Hawaiian low is more profound. Maybe maybe Mashburn. Estrin? Maybe I think that wall prices that is an important question. Of course, you have to keep it in your budget the questions that I would be asking a pop from that in. Of course, you’re you’re bound by the the budget that you have to some degree. But the questions that I would ask a one what is inbound marketing if the person responding can’t give you a satisfactory answer on clear because that’s the sort of the hot area right now. That’s the area that the savvy consumer is sort of that’s the way that they thinking in fight on know about inbound marketing, I would give them a miss the second question the door in us is this traditionally communication involving text requires a reader on Harada does this relationship change when the takes a lot if they humming higher in Buckner, the ANSA give them a wide berth. If they say, yes, the reader is now a user and their role is active rather than passive. That’s a be kicked out. And the last thing that I would say is do you have any reviews argument? So they might say, yes, it’s all linked in vice Bogo Google wherever it is. And one of the things that people often think about which I think is very important. You could you could high up, Dan Kennedy or Gary hill Bod or any of these other wealth, famous Reuters. But if they don’t finish on time if they didn’t finish within the time parameters, you need that could be the world’s greatest copyrighted with the Bill. Best results that went main anything if it doesn’t fit in time for him. It is you have one of the interesting things is people don’t write good reviews for people who don’t finish on time. So even if the review doesn’t specifically mentioned finishing on Paulin. They won’t get a good one. If I don’t finish all so if you read reviews, and they’re all essentially good something like finishing on time. You’d be almost assured that that would be a take my side. I would also straight questions one. What is inbound marketing to what is the relationship involving online takes between the reader on the raw data and three? Do you have any reviews? Fantastic advice. All all make sure I I’m trying to notarize those put them in the post when we live because inevitably people be listening to this when they’re running driving walking or whatever it is. And not in your opinion pencils? I’ll try to get them to the post nights for us. So looking forward to bit now is that something you can see changing. Is there an area where you think copyright? It’s gonna change even more. We spoke about what’s hawk right now. But when you see copywriting going in the next two to three years, some people might feel I’m on hopping on this. But I really think there’s gonna be more because on inbound marketing unless bikes on outbound marketing because people are getting they know that there’s a lot of choice out there. They want to research in finding out what’s going on before die by. Of course, there are certain areas. There are certain industries where out ban marketing works better. But for the vast majority of industries, I think inbound marketing is very important now and will continue to become even more important. So that would that would be. My answer. More and more focus on the inbound marketing in the next one to two years. So if you don’t have an inbound marketing strategy, you are losing potential once or of intestate, I’m curious to have a em an ad campaign. Or branded the moment that you think is absolutely nine met copywriting that that you listen is could go and check out the the way of advertising yourself in marketing yourself, I think very very important. Blogs at the moment because logs are quite a great way to set yourself up as the expert at the top of the mountain, and the people can sort of say, okay. This person is what they’re talking about. It gives you a soda of authenticity issue. A kind of credibility that people are going to respond to. If people are really interested in finding out about how advertising and marketing a working at the moment. I would look around at some different logs. And and say how the message is projected in that way.
00:25:00 – 00:30:11
I think that’s more effective than listening to a radio modus mineral, TV Goethe’s minute. The my show thing is something fit in your mind at the moment that your working towards like a truth that you think or your believing at the moment, but you find almost nobody agrees with you on his something that you’ve got a crazy idea. And no one a great yet. One thing. I think that I’ve found nobody agrees with me on his age is an advantage in copy, Rodney interesting. I am by no means the youngest youngest copy Roger out there. And a lot of people think well in order to understand the digital world you need to be up. Now, certainly if you’re young God you’ve been around it all your life. Whereas. Person. That’s may not have been. But when it comes to writing content having a wider experience having a deep perspective if you’ve traveled overseas if you have in a life experiences that you can draw on you’d be surprised how many copyright his out the us. Listen templates in order to create Kobe never use a list of words or or attempt light because I will make something unique Tyler made for the colonial customer that all I have. I wanted to put a round peg into a square hole or manufacture something. That’s not our daily for them based on some kind of templates. I because I have because I’m a little bit older. Maybe I have a water experience may be a wider perspective than people that are younger than me. And I think that is really really helpful when it comes to writing for making connections with people because they linked together. More expense water perspective gives you the I think bene- check. To create a connection that actually bones with people I’ve got to agree with your. I think though, the older I get I like to be the same as you. I like to think more and more that experience gives you that ability to create long-lasting campaigns, ideas and strategies, whereas you a Coleman new kids on the block turn up there quite a couple of tracks a couple of techniques templates lists as you put them, and yet they might work now current format of Graham and the whites it’s going, but actually what you haven’t learned is the essence of the outfall, and that comes lighter with variance. Six months, maybe. And then that’s a trend that sort of is not so popular anymore on people. Go the next Trent and trans are reporting to keep up with don’t get me wrong. But copywriting at its essence is look at the second part of the wood. Roy you have to have an understanding of writing you need to understand that in order for riding to really have any power at all you need to create a relationship between of the words between the person that’s running in the person’s is reading and that will never change. No matter what kind of writing it is so true. So I if you don’t understand about how to create relationships with rotting, and you don’t have the experience to do that. Then you’re rotting will never reach the moxie to offend testing advice. So last question for Marie before we sought to wrap up paint a scenario in your mind, where you’ve gone to a cafe have you’ve met a young found. She’s looking for a little bit of advice, and you can leave her with one short. Sings bit of advice is gonna help her has. Found improve copywriting very business. What’s that advice that you’re going to give her to take away that’s going to make the biggest difference to business? The thing that I would start off by saying is that personally I love running on passionate about making people feel something with the content that on Rodney. So so that’s what I’d stop it. And then I’d look at that look at that person on Athas question. Do you have a passion for ROY? It’s very very time consuming. There’s rejection involved. In other words, you try to run something in a dozen measure out from why perspective of our recline. They might they may not necessarily lock it. The first time or you use end in a proposal in the end, I may potentially go with someone else every copy run in the world as experienced time consuming things where your your brain goes numb every copy rooted in the world has been rejected at some stage with a client with choosing someone else. So do have the fortitude. Do you have the resilience? Do you have? The discipline. Do you have the self empowerment to to to focus on this area? Or is it better to quit your energy somewhere else? So if they feel that that yes, they can make all of those requirements as far as the copyright goes. Then sure go ahead and potentially do the copywriting yourself. But if you know in your own hop that you don’t meet those things even if there’s a cost involved. I would argue go with some other alternative than yourself because each person only has a limited amount of time in the day to do things, and it would be more cost effective buy from Tom and money if you were to delegate that to someone else if you didn’t make those those requirements that always that always telling that person about Brian a great segue to the loss pot which is Murray.
00:30:12 – 00:32:05
Someone’s been listening to their tonight think to themselves maybe I’m not passionate about copyrighting. Maybe I don’t want to face rejection. Maybe I don’t want people criticize. In my writing I’d much rather have Murray face that criticism for me. Let’s them to find you. Ok well, they can send me an Email at info at the creative writer dot com. Today. You can check out my website where I have parentally. I think it’s twenty seven blows about compelling copywriting. And also wrote his workshop that can also call me my ball zero zero zero three two eight one eight seven so whichever way they preferred to get in contact with me in any way as guy, and I will respond to them if if it’s by Email or through my website, I will respond to them as quickly as possible fantastic. Thank you so much for the tips. I’m really looking forward to pointing out people’s intimidating block content. Now now that I’ve got that phrase. But thank you so much for you time. Thank you so much be insides. And thank you for being on the show. I’ve really enjoyed being a Jared. Thank you for inviting me, and I really hope that the information is not giving out today will will be helpful to the people that will sneak absolutely has been. Thank you so much. All right. Thanks very much. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode. I hope we’re able to provide you with some great marketing ideas, that’ll really help your business as always if you’d like to support me and the show just jump onto Janes or wherever you listen to this podcast and write and review those reviews really make a difference and help me reach a broader audience if you’d like to connect the best way to find me. Of course, he’s on linked in following me on social media, just connecting. And if you could ideas for future episodes or your Marketa, and you would like to appear on a future episode just hit me up on linked in as well. I’d be happy to have a chat. Thanks look at look forward to speaking with you next week.

Content Marketing Funnels for Startups with Kellie Jade Duggan

This episode takes a deep look into content marketing tactics with Kellie Jade Duggan from Metagenics.

You can hear the full interview with Kellie here or download on Spotify, iTunes or Stitcher.

  • Right Audience at the right time
  • Channel Specific content marketing
  • Equipment needs for your content production
  • Timing your content and funnel positioning
  • the rise of video content and IGTV
  • Facebook live for content marketing
  • Listen to Kellie define “Low-fi and on the fly”
  • we also highlight our lack of knowledge on the names for the different generational names, GenX, Gen Y, Gen Z & Mellinials.
  • Hot tip: keep your content ‘real’ and earn some cut through and authenticity
  • Creating content with a purpose; for the right channel, objective, demographic, engagement
  • the idea of conversational content

Here are some Instagram accounts Kellie mentions

@ethicalnutrients @innerhealthau @finnley.fox @therainbowbabes

Don’t forget to help Finnley reach his 10k follower target 😉

Episode Transcript

0:00 – 05:02
Content marketing can be one of the most efficient ways for founder of Assad company to drive that business forward. It’s authentic. It’s engaging and can be a whole lot cheaper than traditional advertising. In today’s episode. We talk with Kelly about the best ways to really hung, your content marketing strategy, how you engage in audience and building content funnels. I’m Jerry Doyle. And this is the facto podcast where we bring the mocking experts from all around the world to you. And awesome advice tips tricks and the things that you can do to drive your business forward. Welcome to this way show. Hi. And welcome to this week’s episode this week where privileged to be joined by Kelly j Duggan who is someone who I’ve had the privilege of working with. But I think months ago we worked on an F M C J Branko Pecci together, and since then Kelly’s gone on to really calm out a niche as in my opinion, a Brandon content marketing, especially round the health FM, CJ sector. So today, we’re gonna be talking about content, and specifically content around social media and peaking Kelly’s Brian to help you with your businesses. Now, you can use content more strategically cycle. Thank you for joining us, Oklahoma. Lol not a problem. So looking to jump straight in because we’re talking to founders and owners of small businesses the way, we always kick off these you’ve got experience now working with some pretty big brands with some decent budgets, and that can be intimidating if you’re a founder nice little coming up against you with you know, it more money for Betty cameras etcetera. So what I wanna know is gene have any tapes of house on his fan of a startup or small business can compete in content marketing of advantages, can they have over the logical per to have got understandably much larger budgets absolutely while. I think what. So I work at medic exile cops that in a health and ethical Nate trance outright out brands. And I think what makes us a little bit different to some of the pharmaceutical companies is that instead of out sourcing content. We actually produce it all in house. So we like to we’re bit different traditional gamma in that we have the ability to to work a little bit more agile, and we’re able to produce content really fast on the small budgets, which is something. That’s very I guess attainable. And possible for for some flack, I found out that doesn’t have the big budgets. It’s a good idea. So if I’m thinking about a culprit that may be. Sending stuff off the studio when agencies and getting stuff ten around town copies quite slow. So as a fan rock that capacity to produce containing house, which means Spade to Mollica, it’s going to be one of my competitive advantages makes a lot of sense. I think as a good strategy in actually is interesting that you’ve incorporated that kind of nimble strategy into a much larger company. Do you think that’s a trend? That’s happening. More and more logic companies studying to baby nimble in bringing the content production in house, or is that something unique that you bring to the table. I mean, I think it really kind. As is reflective of the way that social media is is moving towards at the moment. So traditionally that Facebook is more of a text based platform designed for desktop, but when now moving towards a platform, which is drilling mobile fest. With the advent of faces like the stories fate shot on its to Graham on Facebook. It’s really all about having that moment marketing so being able to cut in the marine experiences end. You obviously catch a lot of in the moment experiences from your mobile device. Sorry, really. We’re you to use Amway bow to to drive a lot this mobile fest content. Interesting, and I think that links back to you. So saying about building your GD or having your own studio. I mean, let’s kind of minimum equipment what kind of set up. Would you be recommending people get someone you spec about a fines, I’m guessing that’s the benefit where these super cameras now in pockets, I’m guessing you can produce a content with your phone. What else would you be adding to that makes absolutely? The thing is we’ve got a lot of technology bills around by vowed devices as well, so you can buy you can you can buy Kimble’s THEO my ball find. So that you can have really smooth Smith content, really high quality content. So my advice visiting hit will JIMBO JIMBO. Yeah. Sorry. Kimball is it’s it’s kind of a device which allows you to hold the fine. It gives you a steady shot. So traditionally Kimble’s full video camera. I am when you talk about acting them advertised on Facebook there, those twisty hand things that allow you to sort of move your hand around, but the cameras toll size still trae. Yeah. So you go Trimble’s you will say God. Yes. Southeast digs for instance. A big thing that weighed moving towards is really looking internally at accents.
05:02 – 10:02
And how we can tell out brand stories for brands through internet tunnel. Ex- ex- bet. Sorry, you know, whether that’s you know. Off the cough interviews with with the in a science lab with with some of our technical expert. So whether that’s we out team of natural gas who he I have have great knowledge in running an impromptu, a like FAQ on Facebook live on Instagram live in and really doing those really off the cuff in the moment experiences using your internal resources and end that wisdom and being able to create really really value. Add obits Unity’s to talk to you. You’ll consumers awesome. What by one what they want United to heal and being outta onto that in real time. Expense to come on. The guy was fined getting someone to come on a podcast is hard little line, filming them. Gee, just have to manipulate the mortgages tenant with the Cameroon. Go action. Well, about sir is working at a company like meta jenex where a lot of stuff natural gas, and they’re very passionate about breeding, the healthy lifestyle messaging that they have a wealth of knowledge that never really passionate about the role that you know, that vitamins and minerals can contribute to a healthy lifestyle. And as a bit of a preventative kind of health. Method. Really? So they have messages that they want to send. So they’re more than happy to to jump in front of the camera and until the stories in spread that wisdom. Then that’s the benefit of working for business where it’s operating to Ohio up, as you know, people are in there for a reason above and beyond just a job in a paycheck. They’re in there because they’re driving some ultimate goal makes lot of sense passionate paper as well. Always make the best contents side. Anyone that’s passionate, you know, you’ve got a bit. You know? No one’s more passionate than than the founder. So I even using yourself as as the content as the expert and. Bringing that that passion through makes for engaging content for an audience. Voice. So I’m curious maybe touching on things that are a little bit wrong to the easy out there in the marketplace wanted some of the misconceptions will maybe even mistakes see people doing what they content marketing when they go live with it. Is there a nephew examples? But what are you saying that they have joing about content marketing the in the wrong way? Definitely speaking your product too much. I think when it comes to content it really comes to bang, adding some kind of value, and I think, you know, sometimes it’s it’s more about thinking about what the customer is is actually gonna find useful, you know, in that has some kind of tangible benefit, and there’s ways to close the loop in what your product didn’t somewhere by definitely not having a product this approach and really coming from a consumer Centric value. Add approach. That’s really good advice. You do see it all the time. Don’t you? Mm recriminations particularly bad at this site. The only content they can produce his we’ve got a job to fill. It’s kind of an easy one onto recruitment agents who really get it. Right. And then provide value add all of a sudden, it’s like all my business takes off. So nothing. That’s that’s really sounded is exactly. In terms of what’s sort of hot right now. You mentioned stories on Instagram is is one particular area that’s becoming physically honk other other areas for content marketing that you see us sort of starting to take off and people should be focusing on twenty during twenty nineteen. Folks, if you look at the at social media in the world of social social media, it’s getting increasingly clotted, the survey different marketing messages in it’s getting hotter and hotter to cut through. So I think for that reason when when you got brands in products competing for people’s attention, a one size fits all approach. Never works. So it’s really about knowing who you’re talking to end creating audience basic mint messaging and delivering relevant interestingly untimely contents that individual, you know, people people want to be treated as individuals demographics as dies. Sorry. Knowing your audience, knowing what your audience once in being able to deliver that right content at the right time for the right person is is really important more important than ever. Advice really is about thinking about the messaging time the president much more than the channel on the tactics. Bryant side so personalization is a big a big big focus for twenty nine content. Marketing definite. I definitely I think it’s also about thinking about what the right China leans at the right time and the right message for that channel. So delivering deliver Todd content not only for that consumer. But but for that channel built for that channel than you. You you can’t have a one size fits all across all the channels as well.
10:02 – 15:01
Sorry, really understanding, you know, which channel sit at different parts of the of the funnel as well. An really really designing content specifically for that channel and that audience of that right time. Actually, taking the time to produce even the same coal content that differently for different channels makes sense. I guess. You know, he’s a logical process. I’m Cain to explore a little bit more on. You’re talking about timing. The delivering the right message at the right time content marketing for a lot of people has been a case of like write a blog price ticket up there. So when you talk about timing how how exactly do you get content to the wrong people at the right time. It comes down to really understanding in the funnel. They gonna be interacting with this content. For instance, a lot of the time an article that kind of sits around, you know, they the consideration. Pat of of the final say, and it can also be used for the qualifying audiences. Well, just you know in the top of funnel as well. So it’s about how you understand web Ahah sitting at the funnel at the time. And I guess designing and considering that content to serve that peppis. Whether that’s you know, remarketing content to take away. Sorry, if you neutering these audiences in may be. If you look at their the consumer time line that customer that journey understanding what content United previously saying have they’re interacting, whether the, you know engaging with the content and then serving. Relevant content at the right time to to push them fed it down that funnel. So for instance, may be they’ve ridge your article. So you’ve qualified them as someone who throat. For instance. Let’s talk about Mendis him say ethical nutrients magnesium is that big hero ingredients. You’ve you’ve you’ve written an article about, you know, ten reasons why you might might be deficient in magnesium. Someone took the finals or we’re talking. Exactly. So it talking top of the funnel. Sorry, we’ve qualified that audience as someone who’s interested in magnesium ingredient. Pat says some kind of you know, using age site that they have. And then what we do is. You know, we really build out I guess sequential content from that the hats off to the pixel is fired on your web page. They read them at magnesium article, perhaps then you can add them to accustom audience, which re-target STAN would something to to push the middle fed it. So maybe you’ve you’ve established in aid. You know, if any magnesium in sorry, you can then target with maybe a bit more products related content. So, you know, about a magnesium, you know, for instance, ethical nutrients magnesium, which is by viable sorry. Is you get more bang about? And it’s really bad. You know, telling that story, then and selling, you know. Giving them that the that raise into the laze. Ties in beautifully with what you were saying about not leading with your product. So did you hear that final in? It’s three or four different phases. The actual product content doesn’t appear until you’re right down to that conversion end. And actually what age that’s when you making the sale. So. Yeah. And so it may be from that sequentially. Sorry. I they now know that United ethical Nate trans has really high quality medic magnesium product. And then to have they been, you know, a targeted something to push in the middle fed the down the funnel. So whether it said free trial sorry attend day free trial of a product or maybe it’s a bit of testimonial content. You know, why other papal United loud finance Webuye that magnesium are really breaking down all the different parts of that customer journey and that funnel delivering the right content at the right time sequentially to to really really push them through the funnel and down to conversion contested. Facebook times like the pixels and retargeting audiences there which make a lot of saints began. And that’s what as a marketer Facebook. So great at giving us is hostile tools that allow us to create finals in their ecosystem between Facebook and Instagram. I’m curious about some of the other platforms out there. Other other channels that you’ll find the moment that assigned to maybe Scola lesson lesson than win channels that you assigned to find a working for content marketing as well. Content marketing, I think there’s a lotta opportunity at the moment with with video content. So it’s something that way we looking with looking fair the towards, but definitely content series as well. Sorry, we’ve got GT bait Instagram Taytay bay, which was recently launched a last year, and that content that is is filmed in in portrait as relatives vertical contents.
15:01 – 20:00
Are I think definitely looking towards more the the mobile fist vertical content and being fish move. I think when it comes to new channels new formats, it’s it’s obviously look to benefit dang that. I move sorry. So definitely I think there’s a lotta open she unity as we move towards more mobile fist, full, Matt psych. For instance, story is like I j I thank God. There’s lots of opportunities to jump on board be a first fist movement really get that those may benefit. Because it’s new and exciting and the same time. Yeah. The platforms probably pushing it in the hope that it works in the same thing with Facebook live Facebook still trying to push live and imminence working. But you get that extra organic boasts that you would normally have got race you if you’re pushing older styles they’ve kind of betted into their advertising ecosystem he has commuted with struggle. So yeah, I think Facebook live Instagram’s stories Instagram TV, these are the kind of things that are relatively new. So it kind of makes sense to cause your attention on that as credit advice. Definitely I think trade inner a lot of the traditional brands is still haven’t really moved into that Vodacom viewing format opportunity sort of old school agencies is still filming with landscape cameras, and the don’t wanna change they ways for the new single genyk says don’t jenex doesn’t even knew isn’t. What are we up to now on you got a better idea than main may jenex? I’m jay. I think now what what’s after the millennials. We’ve got Nathan I remember that does it can be former off why is it X generation Y up to that? Whatever happens. We’ll be back to this generation before we know on again, he’s actually. Sorry. One of the goals for may with the podcast is to give super actionable tips and tricks from PayPal the eyesight, be strategies great. I mean, we wiped towards them. I’m wondering you says I am a trick. That you think someone could apply for content is fairly simple like apply today or tomorrow, and it might make a difference for that business. Once again, just going back to Louisville can you about the vertical viewing format, and how you said, you know, a lot of agencies I still filming in that in that very traditional landscape full Matt people United such as as founded in startups. They have a real opportunity to own that vertical viewing format ’cause you don’t need the big budgets for that. You know? And and you don’t it’s it’s very low fi lo fi and on the fly. I think really slow slide on the fly end on. I think it’s perfect. If you if you really really are in that space and really work on creating really engaging and real personable and authentic vertical content. That is definitely way too bay a lot more competitive against some of the big brands that had the bigger budgets, but on necessarily taking full advantage of the way that that content is moving and that is Boll life by an on the fly. I think. Is now more forgiving, if you’ll real if you’re honest, if you’ll lo fi and on the fly, do you think that consume a generally gives a little bit of sloppiness, you know, maybe a little bit camera movement a little bit out of focus a couple of homes in butts is here and there. Because that’s Dr absolutely well in the wake of old the data breaches in the political controversy, you know, with with the Cambridge scandals in and Facebook really moving towards his transparency. I think these shift has meant people more skeptical about marketing messages, and I think they the relevance of really authentic and real content that he’s in polished is is just so much more important right now. And I think uses a really really really trusting that within tick on polished approach to because it is a bridge will will most of the time. People listening this appropriate to be conducting some form of online comas or transaction. So it is virtual. So you don’t get that walk in get to make the Arna about you’re creating that real feel that maybe didn’t. So maybe the trick is to not try to act big not try to sort of polish everything up and pretend like you some great company. Of Europe company of one person. Maybe rather than writing all your FAQ’s with we or at our company, we like to think that and just be real and say, hey, it’s may I’m one person. This is what I do, and it might actually cut through a bit more. So. Yeah. I think Morgan ever, you know, we need unit as brands we need to be more real and authentic to to rebuild trust. Really? To be too big pod. So now, that’s great advice. I contend building trust olefin tizzy and yet go lo fi. And it probably actually becomes pathetic on the fantastic. Look. This is a hard question.
20:00 – 25:01
I NAR, but content marketing has a habit of nothing measured against results. It’s gonna well. We do because we think we have to everyone else does it. And then historically the one thing they ever measured measured. Social content was likes on curious to know, what are the kind of metrics that you pay attention to your content marketing, and when you want to measure success, I felt it really comes down to you know, how they talk about Elia creating content with purpose. Sorry, when creating content with creating content in mind, the right demographic to the right audience for the right channel but also for the right objective. Sorry, objective digitally. So a lot of the content that way is she’ll content. So we’ll already have in mind our Facebook advertising objective when. When we would building out that content. Whether that’s going to be an engagement pace or conversational pace, or or whether the whether you know, we we want to get sheds with a win. We want. These KP is for for objectives. And at the end of the funnel. Nice and easy. Right. We put a silo at the end or whatever the the ultimate conversion is that top end. You know, I think a win as his is about building that audience if we’re thinking of the content of final then the space is is reach in branding. But building that audience that means we can actually hit the next level of the final. I guess that’s the case objective Ryan, as we know engagement, drives extra Rachel in most of the social channels are those metrics that we previously pooh-poohed said likes. I’m really can’t well Gina what a like if a like this gives us a little bit more reach and the rates gives us more audience not audience can be retarded than we’re probably on the right track. If the objective here, you have in mind in you want engagement, you want likes you you wanna you wanna SATA conversational? You wanna start a conversation than the content that you create United Mesa lends itself lend itself to that in as debate compensate. Content. So we always design content with with our objective at digital objective in mind from found during them beginning content marketing is going to be one of the key things. I wanna do drunk my business forward how much of my budget Sherman. I guess it’s it could be any amount. But how much of my budget’s should be spent on making the content versus all the time spent making the content. I promoting it do do you have ratios or do you? Or is it really a horses for courses kind of thing? I felt you know, there’s no point creating an amazing piece of content. If you don’t have the distribution to allow actually they say enjoy. So I think you need probably more of a budget for they the advertising and distribution pace than the actual content. Nothing. That’s really good advice. If you build it, and no one sees it to even build it. Yeah. Exactly. So I mean, I think we’ve reached a stage now with with social that you kind of have to put money behind him. I think very few of us particularly brands have got the kind of swipe that says if we produce it’s gonna get covered. So I guess for almost everybody content that has to be a little bit of a marketing and advertising budget behind it to get it going get through that inertia. On the more. You can save on the content creation, especially if you can be doing that. We’ve you with your foreign oh with lo fi devices and really low production way with wants to, you know, producing similarly gauging content. I think the more money you have to actually take that as far as you can is probably better spent and there’s so many different tools on the internet. And you know, it you can create content these days as well. Sorry. I think if you can save money in the content creation by doing it yourself, then you can put extra budget into allowing people to actually say that content. He take those acute for the last question. I’m going to ask you what one of the some of the the tools and things that you will online resources that you use or you’d recommend to founders if they’re going to take the content marketing, and do it themselves other some tools that you’d recommend a they check out in. I think you can’t really look much further out than Facebook’s internal tools. Sorry at the moment. You had chills. You can cry instant experiences. You can you can create video is inside the Facebook advertising platform. So I really utilizing Facebook’s free racehorses in tools internally in that platform in a lot of it the time that that secret troll. Sorry, having a look in just jumping in and having a guy and making use of what Facebook is is giving us to pray is is the best way to do it to spend money on tools. These one night. They were winning jumps in and maybe fill that in afterwards. Yeah. Definitely. And you use show juuling will scheduling tools that to pushing out the content of the right time.
25:01 – 27:53
Or did you push everything up by itself? Manually at the time. It needs to go live. There tells us it I like to use the Facebook organic Phages, so I like to to posting platform I like to plan in platform, and I’ll see like to make use of that creative hub where you can create mock-ups for the different pieces of creative than unruly play around. But intensive Instagram, you know, wait, wait fought for ethical Nate trance way way loud. The whole idea of the design fade us Instagram is an intrinsically visual platform. So we like to design every single piece of content as a whole to be visually beautiful and as well presented as possible. So there’s a tool that I use code skid, social and that allows. Us to go to really great native of plan on that you can you can design bit to content. Say however thing’s gonna work stylistically an end visually. Sorry. That’s definitely a good one. And it’s one of the few that part’s straight to Instagram as well. So you can keep video content on further content through Instagram, and you don’t have to push to you mobile Laco. A lot of the other platforms are definitely skid. Social is the the one paid program that I do use. I’m not going to be lots of tools. I’m going to gain drive drive a manual car. I want to know that I’m doing it. Right. So that’s also so Kelly people a cane to kind of see your work in play. Then kind of see how you do your content other company social handles, oh your social handles that they could follow that would represent you’ll work absolutely site. Wave got in a health set in health probiotics which is at in a health AU, we’ve got ethical Nate trance, which is at ethical nutrients, and if you want some really cute dog content than definitely at Finley dot, FOX Finley with two ends as that is my my little little pomeranian, N taste door volt side. We all love wheel love cheat dogs. Visit in your pomeranian has reached the magical ten thousand Instagram. Follow isn’t means you can swipe up now or we used to working towards silhouette into what grad side. Any as I can get to help Finley on his dream to to ten ks. And so I welcome it. You’ll be you’ll be an influence on on Instagram before we know it and thanks so much Kelly. Look, I really appreciate your time. Your advice? I’m sure everyone’s got a lot of tips and tricks out of that everyone who’s headed, you know, your action call now is jumping and follow in light. And let’s get ten. Thanks a lot Kelly. I look forward to following your dog following your adventures and partly bumping into you around the Trump’s again soon. Thanks a lot of your time.