On this episode of the Fractal Podcast, I interview Murray Barnett from The Creative Writer.

We cover why modern copywriting is for an active reader, and what an active reader is
The importance of making your content searchable
How modern copy is clickable & scrollable and accessible
and why to write to a persona and make your copy personal

Did you know you can make visually intimidating copy? I didn’t until I spoke with Murray, this is a major tip and one I’ve taken forward.

We also discuss how the savvy modern consumer does not want to be advertised at, they want to find information.

Murray shares a great tip on getting over writer’s block and he also explains why age is an advantage in copywriting – sneak peek – wide and deep life experiences is copywriting gold.

Episode Quote: “For your copywriting to have any power, you need to create a relationship between the person writing and the person reading”

Podcast Transcript Below

00:00:00 – 00:05:12
Make it simple. Make it memorable. Make it inviting to look at and make it fun to read the immortal copywriting advice from Leo Burnett. The founder of Leo Burnett company and creator of iconic advertising ideas, like the mole Berman now, you might not consider itself a copy run up. But if you’ll the founder of his thought up that’s just one of the many hats, you’re gonna have to wear. Welcome to the Franks Kosta his Jerry Doyle. Doc gates from around the will help you become better. Lock the yours. Hi, and welcome to this week’s episode and this week, we’re going to be entirely focused around copywriting, and helping you become a better coffee Baraja with you want to or not you need to be as a founder of a start up and this week we joined by Murray Bennett, do is the creative writer from the creative Raja dot com. Today, you Mary thank you so much for joining us Jared. Pleasure to be with you. It’s a fun topic for me because it’s an odd form that ever become earthy tat. But it’s something that everyone who runs a company or earns a company ultimately going to have to have that copyright a hat on every now, and then like whether they want to not that speaker copywriters, I’m excited to extract some of your wisdom and hopefully add onto the listeners. So they become better copyright is. And ultimately run better businesses. So this should be fun. Well, I’m trying to help people with running businesses. Let’s let’s let’s go fantastic, sir. I guess to get started. And to set the frame really token to business is in founders. Are we want to get a sense of what the biggest differences between say found doing their own copywriting? Oh, maybe outsourcing and hiring hopyard. Would it be company might be able to do in higher professional like yourself? What are you? What do you see as being the biggest differences in the way that that’s fine? They conducted. But also the advantages and disadvantages eight. Each of the different options have ROY. We’ll I I would say that the biggest difference, of course, would be income or the amount of money that you can put towards the copywriting that you need to do. Of course, if you’re a startup, I’m you may not have a very big budget. So you’d be looking at doing more of it yourself or even all of it yourself, whereas big business would be. Potentially hiring a big coffee running which could charge hundreds of thousands of dollars a year a marketing campaign. So I think the biggest difference is income and the ramifications that come from that. But that being said, I think that I can give some help to stop people with little oh now incomes spend on copywriters and give them some ideas that the content that they come up with is going to be at least effective. He makes a lot of sense. I mean against the the scary thing for a fan of his thought as you rightly pointed, it has a lot less money is that fair that they just can’t compete when it comes to create copied by con compared user his urine area where the owner of the founder of a company possibly can compete in copy with a seasoned professional is there any kind of area where that the have a competitive advantage. Or is it really a case of actually the expense tend to win through when it comes to copy writing. Well, of course, just because you high someone a lot of money doesn’t necessarily mean again to get results. But. I think one of the best things that inside to a found a with a little or no income to spend on copywriting is to talk about exactly what the relationship is between the writing that the raiders saying and the Rita if you look at guy back to English farmers school. For example, you think of traditional rules of of how texts works in one of the basic traditional rules is communication involving text. Requires a Rawda in a rhythm. Kind side when you’re communicating you’re in using spatial, you’re using texts. So I went into text you’ve got Rodman Rada if you’ve got vocal you’ve got listener. In speaking everybody, basically, understands the other important rule that you learn in school is that the rod or is the active role because they creating the language and the raiders the passive role because they understand the ledge or say that traditional rules shown in the digital world that will get ten on its head because in the digital world people who’ve you text online than or raiders they use. And when you’re an online user rather than being the passive role of just understanding language. You actually have an active role rather than a passive role. So if a startup Fanta can get their head around how these traditional rules turned on the head and follow some basic points that I’m getting dwelt launch shortly. That’s a very very good white get star. When it comes to running content that you need to raw. And when you say call this the the raiders activists because a lot of this content is in formats, where it’s social media, and they’re able to comment and becomes a communication rather to one directional pacem information, or is it something different about picked up that that can be part of it.
00:05:12 – 00:10:03
But when I say active role when they’re being uses they searching, the content they clicking through on content the scrolling on the content. They are accessing at in certain mediums that they liked to excess it inside rather than just being in a passive role. When you’re receiving information. You are a user has an active role in in if you like actively seeking out what it is you wanna find? So you are searching that’s an active role your clicking through on links. You’re you’re you’re you’re a user with an roll your scrolling up and down in deciding what you want to read your. Accessing information that you are looking for in the way that you want to do it. So this is all inactive all if you if you’re reading like, a Brian shore poem more magazine article year rated from start to finish. That’s the general why the win off to rate whereas people, for example in website jump here. And there they scan they skim the jump from point to point, and I can thickly turn away from something if they don’t like it. Whereas if you looking at a book, you’d probably great at least a few pages sentence off, the before you decide whether you wanna stop reading potentially whereas a website, for example, you might say the average amount of Thomas three seconds, the the people used to decide whether they want to stay there. So very very active role with with the not not with them being a user rather than a radio makes a lot of sense. I I must admit I had didn’t occur to me like that. And then I think about myself today, I was trying to work out what the standard image size Ovidio sizes for linked in video. And of course, found up high. Age. I didn’t Radel the stuff of the drive down. Got the information. They needed out of the middle of that page grabbed at kind of lift, and I guess g made by activists not just may reading top to bottom in the the way that the English language is always been left to up to bottom it much more. Again. It’s also made with my thumbs moving through the pages. And I’m cutting pasting. So yet makes a lot of sense skimming and scanning techniques that you use. Right. So I guess I guess for the person who’s cl- like the the fat of accompany his close to their product their advantages that idea that they kind of understand the use case understand why someone might be searching for that the content. They provide answers within that content. How to provide that Nick contextual sense rather than for example, copyrighted you might be given a brief and they writing it out of context. And so that’s possibly the context is probably one of the biggest advantages that someone is doing their own copywriting because they have to as you pointed out a has a slight advantage. But yet I think like oh professions. You know, you you like to think you’re the professionals again. To stand head and shoulders in most cases of the rest, so hit make sense, you’re passionate event, your topic in that can come through on your running. And then you’ll be able to give an authentic message because it’s coming directly from you about your product does. But the the the number one thing that I wanted to get across seas. If you come at it coming in from the perspective of what you might call traditional rules of writing. Then you’ll gang to file the only way that you can succeed as a founder in rotting your own content is to get your head around the idea that the national do rules now longer reply in that you go digital will rules rather than the traditional rules? You learned in school. And if you can get your head around that Dan, you have every chance of being successful with your content. Whereas if you don’t get your head around that you have no chance that’s fantastic bit more. I mean can can you break down. What some of these new digital rolls off at you. You’ve related to the first one I’d say is that content in the digital world. Is you searchable? So every word that you write has to have an SEO strategy. And you could learn about basic SEI strategies, you need to have Ron SEO company to get basic idea. If you if you have a would would press like, which which a lot of people currently have WordPress for examples, you can look at Utah royals look at ways of incorporating SEO into that you can do long tail keyword searches with Google incorporate that, but you have to make sure that you do it seamlessly not. So that standout. So that everybody can see. That’s that’s looking funny you’ve got to sort of seamlessly incorporate that into the text, and so you get a high ranking. So it does need to be searchable. So that when people want to find you they can find you. So the next one is click -able, you you need to have links external links internal links it needs to be scroll -able. So you use things like headings subheadings. What else seemed dance? You can use bullet points while print a Calix things that distinguish the texts you can sort of scan a route MAURICE really feels like a big one for me.
00:10:03 – 00:15:06
I’ll do spend a lot of time fleet through to the answer. And then I’ll read that section. So I get good advice. And the last one is that needs to be accessible, which means you need to put it on platforms that your ideal prospect, or why deal client is going to. There’s no point in putting a whole heap of stuff on Facebook. If your ideal customer or client is not going to Facebook. Then then it’s a waste of time and money, so you need to find the platforms or the mediums which they using and then put content with I can find it on those media fantastic that goes against the median dictates the the length of that content in the turn of that content as well. Well, of course, there there there are there are roles about that, of course. But the tone should be suitable to the coin that you’re that you’re running to another key tip is. Never never never never ride to everybody at the same time. Because if you tried to run to everybody you end up running into no one. So it needs to be personable. It needs to be intimate talking to picture the one ideal prospect of corn in your head and brought to that person directly. And then you have a good chance of building a report and making a connection. That’s actually getting the bold them to you. And that’s I think that’s that’s sound advice because his tour across all marketing often, mocking strategies with the creation of up a sign of that you wanna market to and you give that a signer a name, and that way, you’re able to talk to the individual person because at the end of the day, we’re human beings. Right. So we converse with people not stats lodge groups, and I often I often present Poseidon as part of a marketing strategy and the most common pushback, I get is that you know, when Odal every person’s differentiate concert lump, everyone into one designer and the way I think about that. Now says. Well, I think about all the great love songs that have been written and great love songs written to a broad massive people though written for one person. It’s just that the broad massive PayPal pull something out of that story and it works because it was written for one person. Not because it was written for four hundred people. Right. I mean, maybe that’s over glorifying what we’re calling copywriting. But it is. It’s it’s, you know, writing love songs running copy. It’s the same thing you ride to a person and the emotions going to strain. So I think that’s that’s fantastic advice. Thank you. Intimate intimate and personal names that the person on the other end that’s reading feels that that your your speaking just directly to them. You’re having a conversation. They’re getting to know you then they like you then they trust you. So if you go with the intimate and personal than you’re more likely to get ongoing clients that are getting to y from you perhaps for a long period of time animals, I may be giving referrals in the process. But let me just go back to the the scroll of a point that I was saying before I think very very important Bryce is visual intimidation. If it’s visually intimidating people are going to switch off. So if you’ve got ways to sort of not have big bunches of texts that’s gonna be intimidating and sort of make it more short paragraphs with two to three lines dot points. All ball ROY telex than it’s not visually. Intimidating and then people are going to respond better. So you want to avoid being visually intimidated, and I think that’s a very important concept to get across. I love that. I’ve never thought of describing it that way. But it’s so true. You know, if you if you look at a big bucket angry tech staring at she just think, that’s you know, that’s going to be hard work. And especially if you’re on at my all final tablet, if you’re on a computer, you can probably get away with a little bit more of blocks of text. But if you’re on my the boys these days people don’t want to try to digest or go through big long blocks of text. So if you think it’s visually intimidating on a on a computer screen. It’s even move visually intimidating on mobile devices and people are using my bowl. The boys is more and more which means that you’d go to be more careful about this. Stroll lable concept using subheadings indents short paragraphs and so on. So it’s not visually intimidated fantastic. I love it. Great advice. So Murray, I’m Cain to find out in your weld of copywriting. What’s hot right now? What a copyright is talking about him. What are they focusing their their? Attention on. Okay. That’s a good question in the last few years. The concept of what we call inbound marketing has become more and more to the full. So the paper. Yes. Yes, they have. And then a lot of other people have sort of gotten onto the bandwagon. It’s become a very mainstream term. Now, you’re on spot was the one that sort of initiated by the people who’ve never heard of inbound marketing before what exactly is it essentially modern consume? Is there a lot more discriminating when it comes to what they think about when they going through the process the boys journey of of of of thinking about purchasing and inbound marketing means they have control over the information that they’re trying to get so that they can make an informed choice.
00:15:07 – 00:20:04
So the the savvy modern consumer doesn’t want to be advertised that they wanna find information so that they can make a choice based on their own opinion. And that’s what inbound marketing is if you look at traditional TV advertising, that’s outbound marketing so that is interruption by saying drop you’ll life. It’s unsolicited. But of course, MC. Donalds Nike or some of these big companies. They can get away with that. Because they’ve got a brand. So people don’t feel very interrupted too much perhaps equals into familiar brand and its popular rand, and that’s fine. But for a lot of other businesses people are sick of being edba toys that night while the going for their own information. So inbound marketing is more, your blogs, and blogs is probably the number one way of going with inbound marketing, and you’re looking at trying to earn people’s interest rather than trying to buy it. So the big new hot thing right now is inbound marketing people are getting sick of what is generally cooled direct response marketing or direct response copyrighting because people often in in trying to make something really really I have an X factor. It becomes a bit outlandish or it becomes a bit too long by this white pill and dropped fifteen kilograms in two days or less. It sounds like shonky used car salesman and people that seek of that kind of really really full on direct response marketing. Now, I’m not saying that there’s no place for that. I think that you’ve got find your sweets flip. And I would argue that you do need elements of direct response marketing in copywriting, but not necessarily the full on that was popular site ten fifteen years ago. Yeah. Fantastic advice, I’m curious just to. I guess trains tax a little bit here. And and speak for myself, which is often find I get Arcus what’s termed as ride as block in. It’s probably the thing that you hear is the biggest hurdle, but most Fridays need to get over is that we maybe occasionally run into riders block. Do you have any tips or techniques or tricks of paper can use that gonna help them get over the idea of just staring at a blank page and not knowing what to do next wrote his block is everybody gets it from time to time. I’d I’d K who says that they died if they say that they don’t they lawing every Rawda vices wrought his block from time to time to a greater or lesser extent. I think the best thing that I can say to you is if you have rod is block, and your foundering you’re trying to ROY about something to do with business perhaps you could start off by rotting just about something that you’re interested in. So if you’re interested in school or if you’re. Interested in shopping, or whatever it is that you’re interested in Troy running a few Lauren’s about why you’re interested in that. And you you start to feel passion, and you start to feel the flow of of because it’s something that you’re interested in and because it’s it’s Loyd hotter than because it’s not to do with business the stress with potentially be less than once you get into that kind of flow in that kind of environment. If you like self imposed environment, then you could maybe transfer over to the business side, and because you’re already in sort of a flowing comfortable environment that will put you in a better position to stop writing about your business side. Maybe you can spend five ten fifteen minutes running about something. That’s a hobby Nystrand nine drama. Does something that you’re using is fun to you and write down a few lawns of why you’re passionate about it. And then actually you can try to transfer the same thoughts about. You’re passionate about business. Why warm suggesting a homey because you’re passionate about the Hobie? You wanna be passionate about your business? You want to show that you’re passionate about your business? Because if you believe in your product or service that other people will as well and sign if you can train them of that passion from your hubby to your business. That’s a good thing. And you’re already in a good mind frame because you’ve already started writing in your order into a flow, and if you can sort of flow on from that into your business that would be a good technique that all it’s just I really like them advise on I’m to apply that myself now instead of think I’m posing his game. I meant to write about something else. Something unrelated get into the brain the cable and everything’s sought to flow and then switch back into business mode and safe it continues. Fantastic. It’s like it’s starting to with. Sollers without without stretching. So if you think about if you just stop running cold it it’s it’s difficult to get moving. But if you do some stretching beforehand, that’s that’s the way to make the exercise more effective than I think that’s a good analogy that that one of the fantastic. So let’s say I do that. I’m still struggling I’m not really happy with my copywriting side. It myself. Do you know what I need to do? I need to hire a copyrighted into find somebody who can help me to do this bit better.
00:20:04 – 00:25:00
Or maybe it’s not my passion lies GMT tips for people out there who are looking to hire copywriter that could be on one of these could be on a freelance dot com, or it could be meeting a person to employ that company. But I was fined if you’re in an industry, you probably got some secret questions that you now if you could offset the buzzer on the right tracks are money, you can share some advice around hiring a great copywriter. Well, of course, copywriting is probably the biggest disparity in in rights that you can possibly imagine for any industry in the world because low in people who often high school or universe. City students want is you twenty dollars an hour. And then there’s highfalutin copy rod is that will famous that my child you hundreds of thousands of dollars for a campaign. So I kind of think of any industry where the difference between Hawaiian low is more profound. Maybe maybe Mashburn. Estrin? Maybe I think that wall prices that is an important question. Of course, you have to keep it in your budget the questions that I would be asking a pop from that in. Of course, you’re you’re bound by the the budget that you have to some degree. But the questions that I would ask a one what is inbound marketing if the person responding can’t give you a satisfactory answer on clear because that’s the sort of the hot area right now. That’s the area that the savvy consumer is sort of that’s the way that they thinking in fight on know about inbound marketing, I would give them a miss the second question the door in us is this traditionally communication involving text requires a reader on Harada does this relationship change when the takes a lot if they humming higher in Buckner, the ANSA give them a wide berth. If they say, yes, the reader is now a user and their role is active rather than passive. That’s a be kicked out. And the last thing that I would say is do you have any reviews argument? So they might say, yes, it’s all linked in vice Bogo Google wherever it is. And one of the things that people often think about which I think is very important. You could you could high up, Dan Kennedy or Gary hill Bod or any of these other wealth, famous Reuters. But if they don’t finish on time if they didn’t finish within the time parameters, you need that could be the world’s greatest copyrighted with the Bill. Best results that went main anything if it doesn’t fit in time for him. It is you have one of the interesting things is people don’t write good reviews for people who don’t finish on time. So even if the review doesn’t specifically mentioned finishing on Paulin. They won’t get a good one. If I don’t finish all so if you read reviews, and they’re all essentially good something like finishing on time. You’d be almost assured that that would be a take my side. I would also straight questions one. What is inbound marketing to what is the relationship involving online takes between the reader on the raw data and three? Do you have any reviews? Fantastic advice. All all make sure I I’m trying to notarize those put them in the post when we live because inevitably people be listening to this when they’re running driving walking or whatever it is. And not in your opinion pencils? I’ll try to get them to the post nights for us. So looking forward to bit now is that something you can see changing. Is there an area where you think copyright? It’s gonna change even more. We spoke about what’s hawk right now. But when you see copywriting going in the next two to three years, some people might feel I’m on hopping on this. But I really think there’s gonna be more because on inbound marketing unless bikes on outbound marketing because people are getting they know that there’s a lot of choice out there. They want to research in finding out what’s going on before die by. Of course, there are certain areas. There are certain industries where out ban marketing works better. But for the vast majority of industries, I think inbound marketing is very important now and will continue to become even more important. So that would that would be. My answer. More and more focus on the inbound marketing in the next one to two years. So if you don’t have an inbound marketing strategy, you are losing potential once or of intestate, I’m curious to have a em an ad campaign. Or branded the moment that you think is absolutely nine met copywriting that that you listen is could go and check out the the way of advertising yourself in marketing yourself, I think very very important. Blogs at the moment because logs are quite a great way to set yourself up as the expert at the top of the mountain, and the people can sort of say, okay. This person is what they’re talking about. It gives you a soda of authenticity issue. A kind of credibility that people are going to respond to. If people are really interested in finding out about how advertising and marketing a working at the moment. I would look around at some different logs. And and say how the message is projected in that way.
00:25:00 – 00:30:11
I think that’s more effective than listening to a radio modus mineral, TV Goethe’s minute. The my show thing is something fit in your mind at the moment that your working towards like a truth that you think or your believing at the moment, but you find almost nobody agrees with you on his something that you’ve got a crazy idea. And no one a great yet. One thing. I think that I’ve found nobody agrees with me on his age is an advantage in copy, Rodney interesting. I am by no means the youngest youngest copy Roger out there. And a lot of people think well in order to understand the digital world you need to be up. Now, certainly if you’re young God you’ve been around it all your life. Whereas. Person. That’s may not have been. But when it comes to writing content having a wider experience having a deep perspective if you’ve traveled overseas if you have in a life experiences that you can draw on you’d be surprised how many copyright his out the us. Listen templates in order to create Kobe never use a list of words or or attempt light because I will make something unique Tyler made for the colonial customer that all I have. I wanted to put a round peg into a square hole or manufacture something. That’s not our daily for them based on some kind of templates. I because I have because I’m a little bit older. Maybe I have a water experience may be a wider perspective than people that are younger than me. And I think that is really really helpful when it comes to writing for making connections with people because they linked together. More expense water perspective gives you the I think bene- check. To create a connection that actually bones with people I’ve got to agree with your. I think though, the older I get I like to be the same as you. I like to think more and more that experience gives you that ability to create long-lasting campaigns, ideas and strategies, whereas you a Coleman new kids on the block turn up there quite a couple of tracks a couple of techniques templates lists as you put them, and yet they might work now current format of Graham and the whites it’s going, but actually what you haven’t learned is the essence of the outfall, and that comes lighter with variance. Six months, maybe. And then that’s a trend that sort of is not so popular anymore on people. Go the next Trent and trans are reporting to keep up with don’t get me wrong. But copywriting at its essence is look at the second part of the wood. Roy you have to have an understanding of writing you need to understand that in order for riding to really have any power at all you need to create a relationship between of the words between the person that’s running in the person’s is reading and that will never change. No matter what kind of writing it is so true. So I if you don’t understand about how to create relationships with rotting, and you don’t have the experience to do that. Then you’re rotting will never reach the moxie to offend testing advice. So last question for Marie before we sought to wrap up paint a scenario in your mind, where you’ve gone to a cafe have you’ve met a young found. She’s looking for a little bit of advice, and you can leave her with one short. Sings bit of advice is gonna help her has. Found improve copywriting very business. What’s that advice that you’re going to give her to take away that’s going to make the biggest difference to business? The thing that I would start off by saying is that personally I love running on passionate about making people feel something with the content that on Rodney. So so that’s what I’d stop it. And then I’d look at that look at that person on Athas question. Do you have a passion for ROY? It’s very very time consuming. There’s rejection involved. In other words, you try to run something in a dozen measure out from why perspective of our recline. They might they may not necessarily lock it. The first time or you use end in a proposal in the end, I may potentially go with someone else every copy run in the world as experienced time consuming things where your your brain goes numb every copy rooted in the world has been rejected at some stage with a client with choosing someone else. So do have the fortitude. Do you have the resilience? Do you have? The discipline. Do you have the self empowerment to to to focus on this area? Or is it better to quit your energy somewhere else? So if they feel that that yes, they can make all of those requirements as far as the copyright goes. Then sure go ahead and potentially do the copywriting yourself. But if you know in your own hop that you don’t meet those things even if there’s a cost involved. I would argue go with some other alternative than yourself because each person only has a limited amount of time in the day to do things, and it would be more cost effective buy from Tom and money if you were to delegate that to someone else if you didn’t make those those requirements that always that always telling that person about Brian a great segue to the loss pot which is Murray.
00:30:12 – 00:32:05
Someone’s been listening to their tonight think to themselves maybe I’m not passionate about copyrighting. Maybe I don’t want to face rejection. Maybe I don’t want people criticize. In my writing I’d much rather have Murray face that criticism for me. Let’s them to find you. Ok well, they can send me an Email at info at the creative writer dot com. Today. You can check out my website where I have parentally. I think it’s twenty seven blows about compelling copywriting. And also wrote his workshop that can also call me my ball zero zero zero three two eight one eight seven so whichever way they preferred to get in contact with me in any way as guy, and I will respond to them if if it’s by Email or through my website, I will respond to them as quickly as possible fantastic. Thank you so much for the tips. I’m really looking forward to pointing out people’s intimidating block content. Now now that I’ve got that phrase. But thank you so much for you time. Thank you so much be insides. And thank you for being on the show. I’ve really enjoyed being a Jared. Thank you for inviting me, and I really hope that the information is not giving out today will will be helpful to the people that will sneak absolutely has been. Thank you so much. All right. Thanks very much. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode. I hope we’re able to provide you with some great marketing ideas, that’ll really help your business as always if you’d like to support me and the show just jump onto Janes or wherever you listen to this podcast and write and review those reviews really make a difference and help me reach a broader audience if you’d like to connect the best way to find me. Of course, he’s on linked in following me on social media, just connecting. And if you could ideas for future episodes or your Marketa, and you would like to appear on a future episode just hit me up on linked in as well. I’d be happy to have a chat. Thanks look at look forward to speaking with you next week.

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