CRO – Conversion Rate Optimization with Luke Chapman
Covering topics including:
- Simple A\B split testing
- Heat Mapping – including crazy egg, hotjar
- Clear Call to actions
- optimizing and creating a fictionless conversion process
- Landing page optimization – Google Optimize, VWO, Optimizly
- What are the key areas of a page to optimize
- Getting the Simple parts of CRO right
0:00 – 05:02
You spent hours creating Facebook ads you’ve carefully selected Utah guardians and even invested thousands of dollars of your hard earned money into advertising business. So why is it that after all this time and effort he didn’t focus on? Optimizing the onsite experience. In today’s episode. We’re going to talk about conversion right optimization or Sarah. This is the combination of hot and science that’s entirely focused on increasing number of people who hit your website and converting those into customers. My name’s Jerry Doyle, and this is rectal podcast right market professionals from all over the world to help start up found is like you learn the different marketing out foams to grow your business. Hi and welcome to this week’s episode this week. We’re going to be tightly focused around cri will conversion rate optimization. And with join discuss these topping by league Chapman. Who is a digital strategy marketing automation extraordinary who works with red x digital here in Brisbane. We’ve made look welcome to the show. Thanks jared. Fantastic way going to really explore this area, which I feel like it’s one of those areas when you have a business that often gets overlooked. It’s that thing that you stop stopping use. I actually done always worked to get people to my website chilly that can save what’s happening. And I’m just curious. I mean from your from your side, and that’s come my vision of it from your Cy why do you feel or what do you say that conversion rate optimization is selling Poland for a business to get? Right. These days. Yeah. Well, I guess now you’ve spent all the money will time or all three to get people to you website. So if they get there, and then they ended up leaving without in voting into whatever you close as conversion that’s a bit of a a waste of time in money. So you really want happened allies on that make the most of it. Two different ways to do that as some show. We’ll discuss I mean. Yeah. Well, I mean let let’s get into that. Because I’m sure a lot of people who are listening to this have maybe heard of conversion rate, optimization CRO. But it really maybe fully appreciate all the different elements kind can involve because it’s not like traditional marketing advertising this little components. He is. I mean, we’ve got a very short window here. But can you give us a rough idea of the kind of things you might be working on under the umbrella of Sierra? Yes, I really I guess anything that’s going to push people down that funnel towards converting into festival. And just reducing any points of frictional in the way. That can be also things. Jennifer, my point of view do a lot of testing so AB split testing most people hurdles multi variant testing, which is taking that to another level. And then just is experience you just making things as as possible reducing steps. And all there’s all kinds of ice today that list five in some of those. Yeah. I mean, if we’re going to do a simple ABC split test. So might as people get that, you know, you’ve got two options. So he we’re talking about let’s paint us in our in our heads. I’m ginger marketer. I’m blocking traffic to a website. It’s like car insurance website, sending those a car insurance visitors through to a website into a landing page. You’ll capturing those you’re the Sierra guy you’ll sitting there other end, and you want to split test that what what’s the two things I guess to answer. The question is what kind of technology using to do that? And what are the kind of thing you? I jump into an start to split test on those landing pages. Yeah. So I guess the first thing I would do is just trying to make NAS clear. Call to action on the page and just try and optimize the page bit as messy hand before you even start doing any any split testing. So yeah, just have one clinical action. If you’re driving them to a particular landing page, whether that’s your home page or specific landing digestive setup for an ad. Just make it really clear I guess from the ad side as well what they’re going to get when they click through. Marrying up the sort of against the message in the ad with Lenny page of the two things kind of become a little bit. Yeah. One of so many things that the we’ll drive able to bounce away from your side. They if they click through something totally different to what they were expecting the leave in a wasted. Visit so. Just making clear on the page. Don’t give them too many actions to take. So if it’s all about getting them to fill in a foam, then make that really clear action. Give them a reason to fill in the foam until you know, why they showed him what they’ll get. But yeah. Other than making the page as good as he can. Or does he think it can be on the new kind of get into the split testing? Things to test.
05:02 – 10:02
The. You can test different layout different wedding, different colors, different images, all kinds of things. Taking it back further. I would probably use some tools to actually see what people are doing the landing page already. So there’s a number of tools, you can use things like jar crazy eggo this a million among different tools outlet today. Things like eight mapping or scroll tracking take next just fair for people who die things that’s Trump into one. So obvious crazy egg. And not just because I I’ve met the founder, so I kind of like that. Maybe it was worth explaining what what crazy egg does in layman’s terms for people. Yes. There’s quite a few different bills that crazy egg. I quite look like Hajar as well. Yep. Yup. Depends much on his what ages you name buff. I think any kind of heat map tool is probably a good place to stop. And that’s just going to show you where people clicking on your website where the skirling where the mouse’s moving that sort of thing. So you can actually see. Like give you an example because it’s easier to to understand them once upon a time I worked for a car rental comparison sought so it would go on such in a wholly different car rental deals, and you could book the one that you wanted. I another business you’re talking about well has. Brisbane smaller. Right. So we know each other other businesses. Yeah. Exactly. So what I did day. Like, we had I can’t even remember now it was quite a few years ago. One of those tools like gum Hajar crazy Eggen had owned the checkout page where people put their details in any could clearly see intact, they headed to away could actually watch live sessions on the sodden say what people were doing, and you could say that would talk in Email number, and then they get to a section about credit card details, and then just exit the page, and so that’s the kind of valuable information that maybe don’t pick up just by looking at the page yourself. But if you can start to see us uses going through a page in dropping out at a particular point or even a particular point in a whole funnel is pages. Then it gives you really good clear. That’s what we need to split test us. So in that case, it was wedding around credit cards and had that was laid out on the foam. So then we’re able to test a few different options there different wedding different locations on. The foam. And able to achieve like a double digit up list between that and a few other changes on the checkout page where I believe increase conversions. I think it was by that twelve percent, which was you know. Yeah. That makes a real difference in the business. Yeah. I’ve had similar experiences where I used like crazy egg. So, you know, again, crazy bicyc- records session. So it’s almost like you’re looking at the user while their mouth moves around. And I just kept on these hot spots where and hot spots where you’re getting a lot of clicks, and I- recurring on an image. Which had no action point behind any softening hanging people think if they click these something’s going to happen. Sharon, you turn that image into an actual action. And what do you know people talking about the other end? So it’s that amazing experience. I haven’t I haven’t analogy for this kind of thing. Which is if you were if you had a local restaurant, the any like imagine like a little talion restaurant in your in your SABA when you go in there, you always find the Arna behind the BAA on the cash. Register looking at what’s happening. They look at the patriots walking in the customer’s going in and out how many people going into the restaurant and how they’re interacting if you’re going to run a restaurant, you need to say everything that’s happening. If you just walk into the end of the night pick up the tail look at the money and say, oh, look, I might X amount of dollars. I must be doing. Well, you might not. Say the subtlety that happening inside people want not be happy with the process. They might have been bad food cold late service. And so, you know, hey, tracking and mapping allows you to get that kind of vision. So I say that is being almost lengthy quivalent of walking into your own store. And she’s saying the white people are interacting with your website. So it’s great great analogy. That’s exactly. Yeah. A real world example. So I think it’s a fantastic thing to do. I wanted to loop back to something you mentioned a few minutes ago around the single coal to action on a landing page. Now, he’s but you would recommend for people is is removing options like removing navigation removing exits and pods away from what you want them to do in a landing page. Yeah. I guess it depends. It it kind of comes back to goal or your strategy around the page. So if is the home page of your website feel productivity he probably wouldn’t want to remove everything. Yes. But if it’s a maybe running a Google ads campaign and around a specific doctorate specific service.
10:03 – 15:02
You may want to just direct it to a landing page in a good example is using. Lead generation ads way you might drive someone to a page give them a value proposition. So maybe that can downloads you put together something valuable full you’ll market. So if you can think of something that they really interested in put together, a gripe tool or a checklist or little in many evoke was something like that is something that would be valuable to them they go. Hey, I really want that that looks like it’s good some good tips and tricks knowledge. Oh, something that’s going to help me in it. And I’m willing to enter the my Email address to get to to download that book. I think a lot of people have probably seen ads like that. So that’s an example where the ad is really pointing to one thing. Okay. We’ve developed this tool checklist or whatever. And so when you land on the page, that’s really the only thing that you should be having their is just talk about what that is give them the foam to fill it in. And that’s just one simple clear action that you want them to take. So it really depends. And there’s everything in between as well. So obviously, you homepage is going gonna link to other pages on your side. But I think it is important even on the homepage to have a clinical to action not done site audits before where just above the fold on the homepage. So just what’s on the screen without even scrolling or anything there was seven different buttons on this one website to click asking you to do different things. And if people get a bit paralyzed they go so many options, I don’t know which one the clip I’m not going to like any. And that’s that’s a big insight from behavioral psychology, these dyes which is actually if you increase the number of options available to somebody. They get like this analysis paralysis where she don’t make you decision at all and they end up walking away. And so. May be given three options. But I mean, this you just painted. I where it’s a late capture foam as one option. Puts you details in he in grab the white piper. All the all the check this. Whatever happens debate makes a lot of sense. And I wanted to touch on that, you know, we mentioned laid foam, I’m guessing the main strategy there is really to to given a data capture point in a conversion funnel. So it might be that this is a considered purchase. It might be at a Beijing bay into price software, something, you know, it’s a bit more involved. So you’re not going to purchase a new car kind of off a landing page, but allayed capture foam is a logical mid step where you can get a trackable definable point of against conversion. Yes, I work with a lot of debate clients and their tend to have seen affiliate extensive productivity, and maybe a long lead time. And so that’s why those kind of things can help because it’s really just building up that say Email database, and then you can communicate with them nut those leads every time it will be probably wouldn’t use that approach for a, you know, a small patches on ecommerce store or something like that. But the same principles kind of apply in that. You wanna have not clear cold oh action heroism with with TIMMY decisions to make and make that whole the whole her chasing process or the whole purchase get to whatever you count as a conversion just make friction lists as possible, reduce the amount of steps that are in that process in this make it really easy fantastic, sir. I mean, another area of conversion from his Asian whether till Allah like leftover I’m sure you do as well. Like once you get into this space, the fun things to play with in terms of landing page optimization. Do you have some tools that you prefer? You’ve us you recommend for for building these landing pages. If you’re not going to like role is where the you’d like to use that kind of work. Yes. Affray one. That’s pretty simple to use is Google up. The minds. It doesn’t have some of the advanced bills in whistles that some of the paid tools. But it’s a really great place to start. And it doesn’t cost you anything. So and if you starting off with a fairly small sites in in like, a big multinational Koper e com sought with millions of ages, then than the Google told a good place to stop this. Also, all the tools like visual website of the miser or VW as one of the one of the original like guys have been building that for years in there. Yeah. I don’t know how long it’s payment. Feels like it’s been around for about ten years. That’s quite a good job say, yes, same even with those tools like crazy egg and things like that. You know, a lot of as have been around for a while. But they’re around for awhile because they keep innovating. Adding h is just even just the basic functions of the tools are just so useful. Even after all that time. Yeah. The VW. Whoa. Google MAs optimize early. I think is another one. He’s kind of the higher end. Isn’t it? That’s more of a the enterprise level.
15:02 – 20:03
So yeah. And so. Then he kind of move into more enterprise stuff. Like, I’m the example, I gave before about the checkout page to actually use the web trends optimize, which was more of a covert enterprise. Tough solution. Which has a lot mobiles in whistles. But it’s probably not native to my stable. And if you using depends what you websites running on. But if if he using web press, which a lot of people are there websites programs, like a go up to Meisel vigil website of demise. Those kind of things usually work pretty well. There’s a lot of different other plug ins as well that you can use to split tests with would press one of the benefits of would perse is that this many people using in so many people creating things so it is it is great. Isn’t it gets? I’m thinking like are in his at Plugin for WordPress. You just thinking thank you. That makes my AD. That’s why I chose WordPress. You. Yeah. Exactly. But even if you’re not, you know, most of them just have a couple of lines of cover that you copy and paste into your side, and then use their actual tool to to do everything in truly pretty straightforward fantastic’s are are. I’m now in a situation where also thought about my landing page thought about skinny down a rough idea some landing page software or maybe using Google. What’s the respect about that coal to action? What are the areas that I want to be looking to optimize pretty quickly on that page like things spring to mind and things like headlines and images. They other the logical. Go is is it about whatever. Thank applies minutes. Spice on the page is probably what I wanted to be. Optimizing or is it or is there more subtle out within that? Yeah. And and also physician of things on the page as well. So. You know, you probably don’t wanna really long page in most cases, people have to scroll and scroll. And then you’ve got your call to action foam or your button, or whatever it is right on the bottom of the page on. So I would definitely play around with positioning of different elements on the page. Try not to. Yeah. I guess whatever’s above the fold. So that is what’s on the screen when you load the page before you scroll down, that’s the most important stuff. So like, you said the headline by around with with Wooding of the headline. There was a million different schools of thought on how you should write a headline. We’re I’ve had I’ve had a copywriting expert on how many people. I don’t remember which one it was. But you get back to that one. And combine with conversion rate optimization you’ll be on you a winning tickets. Hopefully that you. Oh boy. The what some say what’s right now for you. Like, what’s the what’s the trending conversion optimization that? You’re saying everyone said of jumping onto an focusing on right now. Honestly, I think everyone talks to that not a lot of people. Do it. On the hall of a whole discipline in visual. Right. So I think just getting out there and doing it is is trend that I would love to see more people doing isn’t that interesting people spend tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of dollars dropping people to a website. And then when they get there. They just go. Oh, well, I hope they convert interested to find out is there any or are there any trends at the moment than you? Find a really sort of hot right now that everyone’s focusing on when thinking about conversion optimization. Yeah. I guess there’s a lot of new shining, tools and different things happening in the in the space one thing that comes to mind that you’ve mentioned before to me is is jet books or even just live chat. So we use live chat on a lot of our clients websites. I’ve used it. A lot of. Why is that live chat the company or live chat to like the type of service? You talk about just the type of function so really met a which till you use. But having something on the sought that pumps up office help. That can be quite helpful to if people coming in airing. And so not sure either of it stuck. They haven’t found the information. They looking for the product they’re looking for ways around again, get a donate use the example too much, but the the car rental, in example, winded up putting on chat agents twenty four hours a day because we just tried it with one person for feel as a day until our it doesn’t hurt to have one of the customer service people just jump onto live chat. And we didn’t realize at the time that it would be so popular people just really came to chat to you. Then not so Cain to pick up the phone in coal or actually even Email. But if it’s something that pops up in their face like any notice you’ve been on this page for well. Is there anything that can help you with? It’s it’s such a great way to open that conversation and help them out before they actually leave your sought. And the semi tools to do that. I mean, we mentioned crazy before that even comes built in with chat. So you can interrupt the flow TV watching you website live drug Chattan live person’s been around for a decade laced during their business. And then you’ve got the new behemoths atone up like you into combs who had just again, that’s enterprise level. But that Connor solution is is something else.
20:03 – 25:05
So as the differently multiple solutions out there again, and and it’s funny. I think most people think about it. In terms of conversion conversion rate, optimization that kind of it kind of falls into a bucket of customer service. But if you get into conversion optimization, you can actually attribute value to all of a sudden it becomes a profit center on a call center. Gin and to a real world example like you give the restaurant example before. But you know, if you walked into a camera stool and looked around couldn’t say the the lens of the camera that you’re looking for and then walked out this is walking in and then having a bit of a look around. And then a sales consultant comes over to you. And is there anything I can help you with another looking at those canon cameras. So whatever it is. You can do exactly the same thing with your website base it on the page or productivity looking at and things like Thomas, like bug them as soon as they get to the paid. But maybe they’ve been this thirty seconds of to to give them a hand. And that can be the thing that pushes them over the line. I think we’re winning with analogies tonight. It’s that idea of. Yeah. Every show you walk into someone walks up and says, can I help you with anything? But they make that decision based on where you are. And how long have you been standing there for? So this is just the web version of real retail that we’re talking about here. So it makes a lot of sense. I love it. Yeah. And a lot of those tools to you mentioned into common end few others. But a lot of them will Lincoln with your CRM said he’s got a database of customers. The you have in your sarum. A lot of tools will either have live chat as part of that. Or you know, you can use a separate live chat program to hook into that VAR in the eye or some other way, you can then capture that customers Email address and the behavior of browsing on the website and sorta stuff so definitely look at the tools that you’re using whether this. The conversion rate optimize ation CRM. Whatever it is. You might actually able to link a lot of the different products together. The that you’re using the the one product oh the platform. I’m saying being cooperated more and more is Facebook messenger. Like, it’s interesting. The numbers that are now available and I hadn’t fully appreciated. How brilliant the ply from Facebook walls in this spice until I was shopping at a local Australian electronics retailer you Motte I’ll name them because they did a good job. How I love you. It’s like a gates paradise. I mean the shops if you physically walked to a Yuma. It’s the most impressive thing in the world. But I was shopping online. I wasn’t to show a chat bought because that’s what you do thought. Yep. Off your question, and I had to pick up my kids from school. And so I just shot Jeff walked out, and it’s pretty rude. But you know, it’s like I’ve had enough of this. I I’m gonna time. My kids are gonna be waiting for me at school. I’m waiting in the line at school. Am I find things I looked down at its message? And it’s the customer service rep from Yuma because we’re using Facebook messenger. Bought they were able to keep me engaged. So I was on desktop computer. At harm are then driven to the school. I’m standing outside the classroom. I find things and they found the product I wanted they’re able to replace it laid it all by messenger, but in completely different environment, and they were able to ship it out to me. They ended that dig- got to meet tomorrow or the next day has thought that’s the power of Facebook. If I’m using intercom if I’m using any other. Project platform the minute. I closed that down. I’m gone. I’m out of it like if they captured my data show, maybe they can get back in contact. But with Facebook you’ve got that ability to keep the conversation going, and you’ve created a connection thought. Yeah. Facebook’s on a winning this like I can just see how every business will just produce skins that ultimately just work with Facebook messenger. Because seventy people have at us like well Facebook of Economista was a really using. And there’s lots of plug ins again, the whether it’s. Ciampa fi. Or what press whatever building that a messenger experience into the the whole process giving you order updates and shipping updates and that sort of thing as well. It’s really kind of seeping into all aspects of the the whole process. Yeah. That’s that. Yeah. I was gonna say the example, you gave is just such a great a great way to show half. Facebook has sold the cross platform problem there. Exactly like, you said, if someone hasn’t given you the Email address some sort of personally identifiable information, and then they closed the window. You’ve you’ve lost them. So if they come back on different device, it’s a whole new user to. So that’s a problem that digital marketers and web people have faced a very long time. And there have been different ways of combating. Now, I think that Facebook example, you gave is just such a powerful tool, and it’s just it’s such a better experience. I I used to find it slightly creepy when you know, I’d be say shopping online looking at something, and they knew who I was by on a cookie by Sunday pixel, and then they’d say me the amount saying, hey, I think you left something in your basket.
25:05 – 30:13
And you kinda got oh, I didn’t really ask for that. You worked out who I was. And you sent me an Email with that same that seemed like too much for me. But I don’t know if it’s a time by thing or it’s just the factor messenger. But it just it was a different experience. Well, this is the future of customer service. So an leaky. By speaking about it, just it just totally transformed. What was absolute? Lately, a dead late for them. That was never going to happen turned into a sale. And I just thought to myself yet that is conversion rate optimization and chat just winning beautifully together. Yeah. There’s just so powerful conscious of time. And I don’t wanna make my podcasts emphasize guy for too long. So if someone’s listening to this, and I think to themselves I’m bored into conversion optimization, I spend a fortune in time and effort and money driving people to my website. I’m I’m super came to convert more of those people because it’s it’s a really big with about can poll, but I want to get somebody to help. I want to get an agency or an expert a consultant somebody to come in and help I’m wondering if you can give us a couple of one or maybe two questions that that posing can ask someone who wants to know about conversion optimization that are really test them out and safe. I know what they’re talking about. If that makes any sense it’s kind of like if you can give them the secret hod question. So they can find out. I was his here’s real. And who’s just you know, talking up a big Sierra game. This. Yeah. Well, there’s you know, there’s a secret handshake save to know this. This. No, I think I think it will just ask them again. What would be the first thing that you’d test on my website in why? And just listen to the rationale behind that. It’ll be pretty clear if they try to make it up or if they haven’t bothered to look at your saw ISO, but yeah. In terms of of tools and things like that doesn’t need to be super expensive. So if somebody’s telling you, all you have to buy this tool in that tool, and whatever else is this just so many simple ways of doing it. Now, it doesn’t necessarily have to lock you into a big contract dole. Big piece of software. I think awesome. You know? What would I recommend and any examples that they can give you of of what they’ve done before and some actual concrete before? And after his what it was his what we tested it was at theory going in. But but asking him that fear on as well, so okay, what would you test? But why is the more important question? Like, what’s the rationale behind that? What would you hope to achieve? I think you’ll get a pretty good sense from that. Whether they know what they’re talking about. No, I I liked that logic. That’s to me that’s tapping straight into the experience saying because in theory, you could split test everything, right? You could apply chaos theory. I’m gonna I’m gonna split test. Every single English weather dictionary on these headlines, and eventually, I workout which one’s the best. But experience says you can probably I would imagine you’ve ever look at the science. I I’m pretty confident if I work on those titles all those images, or whatever it is. I’m going to experience an uplift and against this. What experiences in conversion rate optimization? That’s what you buy these. Is your buying shorter tasks like you, basically say we could test everything, but I’m pretty confident one of these three solutions is going to be the answer. And that means you cut down the number of splits, you have to donate. So instead, it is being you can’t just do an AB test. ’cause you go on one of those two things. So I guess you know, when you looking at higher Unix, but what you’re doing cutting down the cost while using their experience. Absolutely. And you can you can install any of those hate map on. Programs pretty easily just have a look at the heat map, and you’ll get somebody it straight away. And then you can go in and go. Here’s the problem that we’ve go and that kind of saves a little bit of time up front, and like you said, you can just focus on that that problem right away. Then and just optimize that rather than optimizing everything. Here’s a really I like that like install an all mentioned crazy equipped mentioned the head of time or a fourteen day trial. So you two weeks before you go in and speak to an agency or consultant installed. Crazy egg. Get all the data send them the logging. And then Robin catch him. A hope they can actually spend twenty minutes having a look at it. And go up he’s the things we’re going to work on here’s why. And it’s going to be based not just on coffee. It’s gonna be a little bit of logic. So in that way, you’ll do whatever agency oh consultant heights, which is probably extract a lot of value. Add we’ll have to actually pay anything. So. Yeah. I think you know. At the end of the day, you should be working on the same page with if it’s an agency consultant or whatever you should be working towards the same goal when you’re on the same team. So I think if you can give them a little bit of that information up front, it’ll it’ll really help them with the process and at the end of the day, you you’ll pay that experience that they have and bring to the table. But yeah, I think if you can go to them us, those kind of questions getting ideas, their answers, you don’t need to necessarily know any jogging or any particular tools or anything to to assess them that way, you’ll get a pretty good idea from from what they tell you in from what you already know that you’ll you’ll business fantastic end.
30:13 – 34:53
I am. And I think I think the Tyco I tape in terms of something someone can do off the back of this is try to install some form of of hate map and click tracking software on the website and get that that visualization of how people actually interacting with your website that I mean if I’ve interpreted right? That’s probably the one thing. Someone can take away in that can rice off. Now get a trial of one of these kind of hit tracking because Lenny party softwares bit hotter. Then things a bit more work, but the click tracking and mouse tracking that seems to be an easy thing to install that seems like that’s the one takeaway brench start with and probably going to give them some kind of inside on that CRO. Yeah. Absolutely. You never know what you’ll on. Onto particular spot. The people are getting stuck at or conversely something that people are really loving. And then you can roll that out into other things you doing as well great. So one last question for you. I’m curious to know, why is this something that you believe in at the moment that absolutely nobody else seems to agree with you on when it comes to conversion right optimization. Well, I think what I’ve touched on the full is just try something. Just just go out there and try the tolls necessarily buy into. You know, the big expensive shiny tools on the greatest latest new. So flare you can’t do it for free. You can do it cheaply, and you can do you can at least get started by itself. So I think the the people especially don’t have the budgets to do it. They might have looked at it ought to hot too complicated in this plenty of people out there breaking their own products and services than going all you have to look into this contract. We need to buy all these extra tools. The point is you don’t necessarily have to you can get started with the basics, and it’s better than sitting in doing. So I think that’s probably my my key. Takeaway is just anyone can do it. I mean, obviously, there’s experienced that other people can bring, but you can definitely start yourself and stopped to unlock some of those insights by uncovering more of that data makes a lot of sense. I like that. I think I think any kind of startup any startup found his listening to this is going to be Kane to something doesn’t cost very much money. And it’s better idea. Did will you don’t have to you don’t have to necessarily employ a huge agency. I mean, you can do. But this stuff he you can do yourself. And if it’s one thing fan of startup companies good at it’s sort of grinding away light at not doing things and teach themselves new skills. So if spot a few people take on, Sarah, that’s a fantastic thing. Because it’s probably the area. That’s laced. Utilized when you think about all marketing as you pointed out already, but if the person is listening and saying yesterday, that’s great. But I don’t have any time because I’m listening to this ends eleven thirty at night. And I want to get in contact with you local riddick’s digital. What’s the best way to find? You all the all the company. Yeah. You can jump onto a website, which is radical digital come to RA DAX digital or social media where all of those under the same name. So just should join inquiry. Your catch me on social. Yeah. Find social such a fantastic way to cut through all the noise. You just like straight in contact the person, it’s not having a chat and business. And. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your times. I look I’ve learned a lot. I’m sure everybody else’s lent a lot, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your his fairly light evening here for us. So I appreciate you taking the time to to chat with us today. Not from until we can probably get for few more hours of battle of the stuff. But I think we’ve covered a lot of the important stuff there. And hopefully, some actionable insights that people can take land start implementing exactly I think we’ll come back. We discuss we’ll come back in a few episodes time. We’ll talk about Email marketing and talk about delivery, and all those kind of extra GI he things when it comes to CR, and I look forward to that second chat with you. Excellent. Sounds good. Thanks again. She is. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode. I hope we’re able to provide you with some great, marketing ideas. So it’ll really help your business has always if you’d like to support me and the show just jump onto chains or wherever you listen to this podcast and write and review those reviews really make a difference and help me reach a broader audience if you’d like to connect the best way to find me. Of course, he’s on linked in following me on social media, which is connecting. And if you could ideas for future episodes or your Maka, and you would like to appear in a feature up site. Just hit me up on late did as well. I’d be happy to have a chat. Thanks, look, alachua speaking with you next week.