Founder Tips for building a personal brand on Social Media with Brendan Kane

When you’ve worked on the digital presence for famous artists like Taylor Swift and Rihanna,
you get a real sense of what is required to grow and foster a substantial social following.

That’s exactly what Brendan Kane was able to do, not just for the famous artists, but also for himself as he grew 1 million following on Facebook.

Brendan is a Growth Strategist, Keynote Speaker and Author.

You can learn more about Brendan’s book ‘One Million Followers’ here
and of course follow Brendan to learn more about his strategy and logic here

Paid Search for Startups with Steffen Horst CEO & Co-Founder | Symphonic Digital

On this episode, I talk with Steffen Horst CEO & Co-Founder | Symphonic Digital.

Steffen is one of the most experienced practitioners of Paid Search having worked in the industry for years, worked in multiple countries and run global search campaigns for the biggest brands in the world.

On the episode we cover a range of topics including:

  • Brand bidding
  • competitor bidding
  • keyword funnels
  • why you should not optimise ad groups early on
  • don’t have 10-15 keywords in an adgroup
  • Keyword match types (learn more here)
  • quality score (1-10) definition
  • in-market audiences

…. and because you obviously love podcasts, you can check out the Symphonic Digita podcast here.

Automatic Transcript here

Paid Search for Startups with Steffen Horst Steffen Horst CEO & Co-Founder | Symphonic Digital 00:00:00 – 00:05:01 Thirty seven percent of all money spent on digital advertising is through Google. That’s over one hundred billion dollars a year spent globally through the Google platform as you can say Google’s not a platform or a channel that you can afford to ignore with your business. But more importantly, there’s no barrier to entry to advertise on Google. So any business regardless of how small will hound you can open an account and be appetizing on the world’s biggest advertising platform within minutes. I’m Jerry Doyle. And this is the practical podcast where I bring marketing experts around the world to you to help you drop your marketing Deva’s forward. Let’s get this show. So welcome to this week’s episode where again you being Tyler focused on paid search. And when we talk about hide such a postman talking about Google and Atwood’s because Google pretty much owns this market. And to help us get through this very important part of the moxie makes we had joined by Stephan host who is the CEO and co founder of symphonic digital and a longtime friend of mine says Stephan, welcome to my podcast. Thanks for having me, really quick background Stephan. And I worked together in London with an agency reprise media. I hide thing. How long ago that is now, but it was a robbery, and when he had some absolutely brilliant times and we worked on a number of quite high profile pitches together. And I still have a very clear memory of looking across the reprise meteorology office, when’s deafen the phone call from Coca Cola saying whether we’d want to pitch or not. And I what she’s feisty tender with two big thumbs up to signal that we’d actually. Wonder if the code and it led that and nut that’s itchy my memory. That’s what I think of when I imagine you. It’s you on the fine with your thumbs up like Aw with one this. We couldn’t believe it. So that’s that’s out his ACA. So whenever you see a Coca Cola cutoff sparks memory. I just I just have a mind’s eye of your face grinning across that long. That was a special moment many long nights laying out PowerPoint slides and the voter table. That’s good times. Good experiences. And what’s great for everyone? Let’s use the show is you could NAS for someone who’s got more experienced white around the world on huge brands in paid search, which is great because it means that experience is gonna come to you through these podcasts when we start talking about how we can possibly compete against these big brands, and that’s where I want to get started. When I think about hide such a with come from wicked agencies with hundreds of dedicated professionals working on paid search working for brands lack cog. How is every possible for a small business owner founder of a company to even try to compete with these companies if you’re gonna need tips about how they can do it while that’s a that’s a really good questions for companies like Coca Cola? They obviously have deep pockets, and I wouldn’t say that they’re agency managers are not thinking about how to best invest their money, but they have other. Problems when it comes to how to set up campaigns for someone who who just starts out for someone who doesn’t have awareness cannot rely on people coming into that website in buying products or requesting services for rent term. It really is about sitting down and thinking about you know, what our core areas that I can provide strong service or strong products in N, basically didn’t looking at exactly what key words are going to be best used to drive the mand that obviously is the first pod. But what is from our perspective from my perspective. More important. What has become more important to really make sure that the ad copy that you use for keyword groups is even more tailored. And when I say more Tatum really thinking about that purchase final. You know, you have keywords that are more upper funnel. She words and you add copy needs to. Flecked that part. I always say, no when when you go on the first date with someone and you completely smitten with that person at the end of the day, you’re going down on one knee and saying will you marry him not anyway. Well, there might be one thousand chance to actually get a yes, but nine hundred ninety nine times, you will get most likely. No, you will not see the person again, and it’s a little bit like that. So if you would have keywords that are upper funnel T-word. You don’t hit them with by all products? They don’t know. You don’t have any relation to you are by products or get your services, you need to ease them into getting to know you. So you wanna have Ed copies that draw them in. And basically help you introduce your company or prodecures services and the further you go down the final keywords change. You didn’t adjust the ad copy depending on where you are when people amid final. 00:05:01 – 00:10:00 So when they compare information your at company needs to reflect and obviously when you’re. Oh often. Will you need to make sure that you have a sales message makes a lot of sense know, inquiry quite daunting to stop. The key words at different stages of a buying stock in creating funnels. If if I wanted to just get started would you recommend that I as a fan, nervous dot up started the top awareness and try to build some awareness research, or would you suggest that we start sort of with the buying temps and try to convince people as quickly as possible. You know, what my opinion is that we depend on prajit half. If you have a product service that is hot in the market. You know, maybe do a me too product. You know, you might actually be successful to go down in the bottom funnel because there’s already demand for those kinds of products or services. However, if you have a product the service that is completely new to the markets debt that needs explanation that needs introduction. You will have to go up in the final in. You will have to introduce people to what that is a good example. We’re recurrently working with a company in the US who wants to offer a new experience on how to help. Test drive cars and that suggestion how to do that is so new so different tube. What democracy does that they try to beginning to really hit people with a hammer over the happened said sign up do this and it didn’t work. So we actually went up the fun. We explained that service. How would works? What what the ins and outs are in basically on some people questions. So we anticipate those pensions and by doing so we we got standing in the market, you how that service works in then result people coming down the fund in way to pick them up, you know, in the lower part of the funding combatant. So really the bottom line is. I think it depends on the product you have if you have a product that has already request in the market, and you have the price advantage or you’re better. You know, I would cover the lower funnel. If you have a product that does not fulfill that or doesn’t you you will have to go up in the final in. We’ll have to stop there yet. That makes a lot of sense. I think for a lot of if you’re a truce add up, and you’ve got somebody’s it’s actually innovative elect the idea of starting top of the final finding associated questions and demand that you can relate your productivity and getting that first liberal of being Agenent satisfy the question, and then I guess in my head what I imagined doing in. Search could be a really good top of the funnel drivers. He’s getting that engagement through to your website. And then potentially you could marry this up you to play with vice Fokin retargeting on social media networks rather than just such. So you kind of combining two different channels. So it’s the drive that awareness face really early on we identifies some demand and might be quite generic. But then you can use vice book re targeting pixels to actually hit a person with a message move them further down that funnel. So yes, it’s an interesting strategy to get wet quite well. Yeah. I think your comment on Facebook site asus. Spot on always talk about search here. I think thinking about the entire final not only about one channel. But looking at how can every engage with that person? And you can. Disley do re-targeting on Google too. But from my experience doesn’t work as good as we targeting on Facebook yet, it’s an era of Facebook is particularly strong, and when you say retargeting on Google, are you talking the YouTube retargeting this exact, yeah. Got a display that Google display network pretty much doing the same thing. You would do on on Facebook. You know, you obviously tack your website where if the Google tag. And then you you’ve re-engage with people that being to either specific side or to upset role in provide a message that leads down to funnel. And if your content is happens to be house on YouTube, and you producing videos will then using YouTube retargeting through Google that way is a logical way. So yet your point exactly right pick. What’s right for your content, and you’ll final game your your messages and combine it and yet we blend the channel’s requirement about a chance I’m curious to find out a little bit grand. What you’re saying sort of? Right now in such. I mean, it’s been quite a number of years since I’ve really been dropped into set. So is there an air at the moment that such market has really talking about and testing, you know, I think we will as they do constantly at the moment. Making quite a number of changes to what inflammation they are going to share and and how their system in general works. I think, you know, before we jumped on the call talked about that we seen a situation where Brent terms that, you know, five ten years ago, we were able to buy for Senate maximum ten cents that were uncompetitive so were competitors. When not trying to advertise against Ben terms. They were very low from cost. Perfect perspective. You know, nowadays, we see Wrentham’s were Wrentham’s are not contested over competitors. Not bidding on them going up, fifty sixty seventy cents. The there’s a huge problem that comes with that situation. 00:10:01 – 00:15:00 Back in the days. We talked about you know, we were able to subsidize generic keywords. In general are more expensive through Brendan conversions that these days is hard to do if you pay for full fifty sixty dollars cents, all Australian dollar. That is a big thing. There’s a big compensation in the market were people talking about why that is Google comedy gives you an answer. It’s just the system that doesn’t nets general answer you would get from Google. So that’s that’s Dave, basically one one topic. There obviously have been massive changes on an how many headlines you have an ad copy lines. You have you know, back in the day. So it was very easy. You have your title that had twenty five characters, and then you had to description lines. And that’s it. And nowadays that has increased I think two three lines and what Google has done their research is to to look at how can at make a big impact an. Can provide more information to people that are looking for specific information. Yeah, I’ve noticed that as well. Yeah. It’s it’s that crepe of how much real estate is the ads gonna tight on a search engine result page, and you just it’s just naturally if you wanna just bump your stock price off a little bit make a little bit more revenue discrepant extra couple of percents of real estate on that really valuable Google search results page and sure enough more money goes through redwoods, icon Kansai. I would do it any differently. If I was Google plus dare in the market to make to make money, you know, at the end of the day. And also, obviously, you know companies like took out the right and site for ads when we only have to to add listings on top of the natural search net or move now over to the center where you have a maximum four listings on talk, which will put obviously all natural so treselle, and, you know, the Google maps and some Twitter listings out of the way endeavour, you know, when you come. To Google search result page nowadays, you don’t necessarily mutually c- netra search results anymore unless keyword Joe. Using is not been on by a company. Yeah. And I guess it makes it also really important. You know, as we both remember time when you can of get ten ads on that front page. If is only going to be two or three ads the importance of being the top rank anywhere or the the ad bearing in position one or two. Now must be even more important than it’s ever been again. I mean, obviously talking you audience are startups, and when when you have a startup you I really well funded, and you have a lot of money, and you wanna make a big impact in the market quickly. Then you wanna push position one to to to push the guys that previously were the the place holders autos away and pick up as much as possible of the real estate not necessarily thinking so much about how much is going to cost you that individual conversion when you have stars on the other end of this factual that are self funded or. Have limited funds. You know, it might not be required to be necessarily on position on you might be going, okay? With being on position to in three. And what you going to do as you look at again at copies. What are your competitor’s talking about how they at copies design in your fight away to make your ad copy either through different wording for calling out certain things, they might not call out. But you know, that your audience is interested in that. So it doesn’t have to be position one position. One does not necessarily mean you are going to be Karoon to have the best results. And if you on two and three or even four you go into fail. I think it’s again, it’s a situation thing that kind of should drive that and, you know, for every company does certain terms would you just wanna be front and center, but in general, I think looking at where you are from a company perspective. What your financial capabilities are detrimental drive your decision on? Whether you be aggressive, or, you know, more. What’s the word resolved in your position in the world? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So just going to connect that competing with other people and what we spoke about before with brands such if I’m an innovative startup company in as an existing player in the marketplace Howard. I if I wanted to Howard I a bat beating on their Brandon and slightly risky strategy. Right. Or is it is there a formula? I could possibly followed to get the best chances succeeding that. Well, I mean, you know, the question is how big is your competitor in how much money do they have if if you start bidding on your competitor you have to be prepared today. Do executives him thing, which can become a problem. Right. If if they have strong market share already day might just push you out by bidding on you. Because the people that search for your brand terms might be tempted to go to the market leader. 00:15:00 – 00:20:01 You know, they might not be necessarily interested in the fact that you have a few more features available. Than the competitor. So that’s that’s always a risk that that new plan comes into the market has in general. I mean, you you book the the grand terms of your competitor in different forms of spelling you use their are L in in some other words in then you basically designed an ad copy that aims at at. I know talked a lot about at copying. But for me at copies is like the window. When you go shopping with your wife ride. That’s what draws the wife over draws you into a store and yet copies exactly that if you want us do competitive bidding you need to have an ad copy that stands out, and that make people think about whether they click on the position one on the one that is there already or click on on yours. Good. Good example as Iran article yesterday. Sure, that’s in Australia to obviously a lot of companies nowadays that that that says. Mattresses home delivered mattress. So you don’t have to go to a store engine mattress at industry, we’ve got koala and sleeping, doc. I don’t know why we like animals mattresses, but apparently they’ve editor. There you go. So here in the US. I I think there are at least ten companies, and I read an article yesterday as a company called tuft and needle and day, basically do competitor against all the others in what they say in their ad copy, something I don’t spend all the money on ABC. Try our mattresses. They are much better. They’re much cheaper there bold in their company Kantian, but you know, what? Sometimes it has to be bolt to generate interest in to to get someone to click on your ad and get them to your side. Yeah. I like that idea actually if someone else’s making a market, you can potentially just bid on their brand terms bequest explicit in the fact that you’re different explain what it is. And and get that trial. So the other companies done all the hard work. You know, someone big like casper koala has all of the building the interest in Asia. And right at the point where that the the final thinking about making such as jumping on the cut them on price. Put a put an interesting twist on it and. After the customer a like that as a strategy. It’s a bit. It’s a bit evil, but. Hey, what sometimes you have to be a little bit broke? And what I probably also would say, it’s you don’t necessarily have to be positioned mom, again, something I said a second ago, you might be totally fine with be on precision to and paying them the men CBC, you know, but you add copy might make all the difference. Yeah. I think if someone’s listening to this, and they haven’t really been running Edwards before they might get a little bit confused around where talking here about bidding in ranking how they things rank in Monte good, just if you could give an another you’ve done this a thousand times in your life. But a really quick explanation to exactly how some ads or how Google ranks the ads in Edwards co-boys. There’s a long Rosen. I will stick to the short version because. So. In back in the day. It was very easy. You you pay the CBC and the person who paint more would get the top spot in end, depending on how much you you recently were willing to pay for keyword. You would follow suit? These days. Unfortunately is a little bit of a black box approach that determines what what you’re CBS’s in position at the end of the day going to have in Google paint search results it’s things like what is your CGIAR in? Oh, so what is to click through rates of people that the what at click on many of those. It’s the CBC to Maxine PC. So how much are you willing to bid for specific keyword in some people put in a hundred dollars? They will pay one hundred dollars. But they indicate to we’re willing to pay a lot to be positioned one. We will take all those information and puts them togetherness flick barks, and then basically depending on on that decides what position you’re on. But you can be the system tells you what the minimum CBC at the end of the day that you have to bid to appear, and if there’s only a competitor in Judah would be in the market. Place. You know, if you bid on the minimum CBC, let’s say minimum TVs twenty cents. That’s what you bid. You’re not going to jump the brand holder, but you will be on position to write bind rental there. It’s always been a difficult by inset Jinshan mackney hasn’t it to explain this because faith Facebook and Google by Taryn this privileged position where they are in the audience than not transparent about exactly what you’re buying and how much you’ll pay and I can get away with it because like own the entire market. So it’s always been a tough explain to clients. Our anyone you’re advising because they had what you’re paying in. It’s just it’s just the way that you run the business, and obviously everything changes, you know. I mean, there’s no week when there are no changes on Google aside. 00:20:01 – 00:25:02 Whether as we said earlier on specific functions, or what data you can pull, you know. So it’s it’s it’s frequently changing, and it can be daunting and sire. If I if you if there’s a found a or in honor of our company listening to this, and they stunned to get an idea that there’s a lot more to such than they thought about. And they actually know what I wanna do is. I want hire agency on Moi’s Cain to hear from the inside the kind of questions that you could awesome. What he so they wanna hire professional agency a contractor wherever it happens to be. What’s the what’s a couple of questions like ask it’s gonna you know, salt the the good such professionals from the the Cowboys have just turned up recently. I wonder if you can give us a couple of lecture Lee questions, we could ask people know, you whom you’re comfortable here. What question do you not want it? Now, it should be one that if you if you get the question you can give a good answer. And hopefully, you’re able to demonstrate that you really know what you’re talking about. If I look at it more from implement employment perspective, when I when I interview people to bring on board as as people, you know, they are there questions the basic questions. Do they know you know, what match types are? So what he would appears against a broad number of terms or just as Pacific Hewitt was type in that definitely is is one inflammation. I always ask them what the process is. If they have in the count within small budget compared to a large budget. The reason why ASTA is you know, if you have a small budget. It doesn’t make sense to create so many campaigns in that might you know, what I’m saying no might overwhelm some people Kristie saving money campaigns to Google system. The paid system is broken out. Two campaigns, which is the top level at groups are underneath that. So one campaign could have several ad groups and moving aqui words. So if you have limited number of a limited budget, you know, you you wouldn’t create too many campaigns because you need to break the budget, you have over several campaigns. And you might get enough enough information to optimize while when you have a lot of budget. It’s not a problem to have several campaign. So I always ask them what is your approach of small accounts with small budgets and accounts for big budgets in their answers. They’re already kind of give me an indication of if they understand the difference between small and large clients. I always want to know what is the optimization approach as I said, the second data is really important if you have a smaller account small budget might take a little bit longer to collect enough data to make optimization decision while when you have more budget, you collect more data and they’re. For you can make decisions quicker. You hit quite often people at Sahan launching her pain in next optimization that doesn’t necessarily make sense because you know, you have stated for one day debts. Not an indication to how in the count worse. Yes. There might be some keywords to argest going crazy, and you want to correct them pasta, or, you know, bring them in. But in general, you know, you wanna wait week to two weeks in den, analyzed the campaign in through the optimization wait another two weeks to do the same thing again. And maybe do a third round till you have kind of brought to campaign to a point where you didn’t start AB testing. So talking to him about finding out what their of demotivation approaches is is really important. You know, how do they start to add hoops Google best practice in a lot of expansions on? I think that’s a good one. Is you don’t have more than ten shifting keywords in an ad group. The reason why because then you can ride really at at copies. If you have thirty forty fifty. Keywords in at group. Delighted of them all being about the same theme is very small, which means you’re ad copy will be very generic. Which means you’re not going to have that much of a success in getting people onto your side. So I mean, those those are those are few questions. I don’t know if you have some other way like in what these are the ones I actually ask look, I think the first one is the most important because when you talk about the different types of Kiewit matching if haven’t caught that you can pretty much throw them out of the rooms try to. But people who are listening. It’s a simple question. But it’s actually a good one for you to get your head around. So what’s staffer was talking about was the different types of search, keyword matching types, and in what that means is this road matching this fries matching has exact matching Rhode modified got that right? And an age of as so normally you have to pick a keyword or a such fries that you want to bid on. You’ve also got to pick the top of bid. And so a broad match means that when you match you put a search fries in it doesn’t matter. What order those words appearing in? What other words were around that your ads will pay for it? Whereas the fries match says the exact key was that you search also might be new running shoes it has to pay as new running shoes. 00:25:02 – 00:30:02 A copy new shoes running with the phrase match crucial Adwan appeal, but you can’t have other things. So it could be cheap new running shoes so fries. Much allows you to have extra keywords around it. Whereas an exact match actually says it has to be exactly the such as you’ve taught if. If you’ve got new running shoes a metro such fries. And you’ve said it to an exact it has to be an exact match that explanations. Not. But it’s really good to study up on that and get your head around the because if you’re asking us professional Nikon explain it clearly in office on a terrible job. So that’s not good for me. And I do like your advice to around that optimization because you know, it. It’s your natural instinct is to start off demise. After the first click, but yoga wouldn’t have been registered at quality skull from Mexico key words, so you know, even Google hasn’t decided where you should be ranking what should be happening yet. So you can get a time Google and Facebook both have the internal metrics where like if you are a writing to say how relevant they think you’re landing page and Joel copy inexperience is relative to that, keyword. Is it went to five or one to ten I can never remember that is wanted tend to actually, you know, as as we brought it up, so what qualities go at the end of the day means is it’s it’s a number of that outlines how will search term matches to the ad copy? It is associated to and whether that search term is also visible on use on the lending, h all what Google wants civil do by by defining. According to. Core is developments over such very tuna lending page because they want to give people the best experience. They want to ensure that people that search for information in when they click on website. They find exactly what you’re looking for. So when you have a high quality skull ten it, basically means you’ve done everything. Right. If you have one you better stop improving. The kickoff the kick out on this is this. If you call it your score seven, you’re at a neutral place. Google doesn’t give you a penalty, and you’ll get a discount if you move up from aid from seven so eight nine and ten you actually get a discount. So he has drink price gets cheaper. So you get kind of good job from Google if you quality scores below seven so six further down you actually get a penalty. And which means that you see you see will be higher could be that, you know, you paying for the same keyword five six dollars in someone else. Who has you know, a high coin to score above seven might pay only two dollars or even less? Therefore, it’s really important that you know, when you decide to either yourself built a search campaign, or you have someone that you hire did you work together and ensure that the leading pigeon, vitamin will you sent people to is kind of reflects the search hurries that are within an act that gives you the best chance of achieving high quality scoring obviously the search query needs to also be in the ad copy. That makes a lot of sense. I’d love you guys. In your crystal ball. I mean, you’ve got you can go back over a lot of history. You’ve saying search of all over many many years where do you think the next step in such engine marketing is on the on the pilots? I wait, what do you think’s gonna evolve Bevis with this year? And maybe into next year has good question. I mean, you know, search has over the years improved so much from the very basic like we been on one keyword in pay exactly. The CBC to you know, nowadays you have in market audience. What that means is if you are caught Neela ship or you’re thinking about. You know, buying cognition. Funding holiday does show and you want to start advertising, you can actually get access to people that are in market to buy a car within the next. I think it’s three months if I’m thinking correctly that wasn’t available several years ago. It’s not new, but it kind of shows you how rules continuously improves or gives you more options to be more precise with your with your search and to be able to reach the people that that you are looking for. I totally agree. I think Google will start to incorporate more data into what do in this results in thought to make smarter suggestions and instead of people at casually type game, they’ll split people. Like, you said we dealerships and say these people are just looking at cows, but people buying causing three different audiences, and that’s not going to be explicit in the search. It could be same. Search query better. Will be Google saying, hey, there’s three different audiences. You don’t need to know how we know what we know everything. So we’ll we’ll split it up for you. I think that’s a I think that’s a solid poll next maybe two or three years with Gaumont again to do what he sat in regards to date. I think that’s a that’s a great point. I mean, there’s a law talk about data intelligence on. 00:30:02 – 00:31:47 I essentially I think as a company that has so many data points. I’m a more convinced that those data points will make their way into paint search which will allow to be even more targeted, you know, when running paint search campaigns because that’s what the market wants. And I think that’s where the market is heading. Yeah. Facebook front running on the data side of things like Google for once can be a little bit slower on it. And maybe let Facebook take all the privacy bullets and out of the set of trickling behind it. Probably come with the solution that everyone accepts exactly exactly well, thank you so much for your time. You’re based on the from the west coast of the US yet that’s going with clients just on the west coast or all of the US or globally. Does it matter to you? Honestly doesn’t match you because we’re virtually agency. We have some clients in Europe. If there’s a client that thinks we we can help them. And then we think we can L that company. I don’t think you know, the location is isn’t big road block these days, not yet should base. So there is someone out there. And I want to get in contact or just sort of follow what you’re doing. What’s the best way to to get in contact with you? Yeah. So I mean, just go to our website, WW dot some funding digital dot com. You find a contact page there. Leave your information we will reach out to you. Or you can also send me an Email, which is Stephan spells S T F F E N at some funny digital dot com. Fantastic. Well, thank you very much for your time today at been great catching up with you. It’s it’s been way too long since inside. Will we need to we need to speak other than just on podcast? But thank you time today. And I thank you for sharing all the insights with everyone his listening. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Gerard.

CRO for Startups with Luke Chapman from RedEx Digital

CRO – Conversion Rate Optimization with Luke Chapman

Covering topics including:

  • Simple A\B split testing
  • Heat Mapping – including crazy egg, hotjar
  • Clear Call to actions
  • optimizing and creating a fictionless conversion process
  • Landing page optimization – Google Optimize, VWO, Optimizly
  • What are the key areas of a page to optimize
  • Getting the Simple parts of CRO right

Episode Transcript

0:00 – 05:02
You spent hours creating Facebook ads you’ve carefully selected Utah guardians and even invested thousands of dollars of your hard earned money into advertising business. So why is it that after all this time and effort he didn’t focus on? Optimizing the onsite experience. In today’s episode. We’re going to talk about conversion right optimization or Sarah. This is the combination of hot and science that’s entirely focused on increasing number of people who hit your website and converting those into customers. My name’s Jerry Doyle, and this is rectal podcast right market professionals from all over the world to help start up found is like you learn the different marketing out foams to grow your business. Hi and welcome to this week’s episode this week. We’re going to be tightly focused around cri will conversion rate optimization. And with join discuss these topping by league Chapman. Who is a digital strategy marketing automation extraordinary who works with red x digital here in Brisbane. We’ve made look welcome to the show. Thanks jared. Fantastic way going to really explore this area, which I feel like it’s one of those areas when you have a business that often gets overlooked. It’s that thing that you stop stopping use. I actually done always worked to get people to my website chilly that can save what’s happening. And I’m just curious. I mean from your from your side, and that’s come my vision of it from your Cy why do you feel or what do you say that conversion rate optimization is selling Poland for a business to get? Right. These days. Yeah. Well, I guess now you’ve spent all the money will time or all three to get people to you website. So if they get there, and then they ended up leaving without in voting into whatever you close as conversion that’s a bit of a a waste of time in money. So you really want happened allies on that make the most of it. Two different ways to do that as some show. We’ll discuss I mean. Yeah. Well, I mean let let’s get into that. Because I’m sure a lot of people who are listening to this have maybe heard of conversion rate, optimization CRO. But it really maybe fully appreciate all the different elements kind can involve because it’s not like traditional marketing advertising this little components. He is. I mean, we’ve got a very short window here. But can you give us a rough idea of the kind of things you might be working on under the umbrella of Sierra? Yes, I really I guess anything that’s going to push people down that funnel towards converting into festival. And just reducing any points of frictional in the way. That can be also things. Jennifer, my point of view do a lot of testing so AB split testing most people hurdles multi variant testing, which is taking that to another level. And then just is experience you just making things as as possible reducing steps. And all there’s all kinds of ice today that list five in some of those. Yeah. I mean, if we’re going to do a simple ABC split test. So might as people get that, you know, you’ve got two options. So he we’re talking about let’s paint us in our in our heads. I’m ginger marketer. I’m blocking traffic to a website. It’s like car insurance website, sending those a car insurance visitors through to a website into a landing page. You’ll capturing those you’re the Sierra guy you’ll sitting there other end, and you want to split test that what what’s the two things I guess to answer. The question is what kind of technology using to do that? And what are the kind of thing you? I jump into an start to split test on those landing pages. Yeah. So I guess the first thing I would do is just trying to make NAS clear. Call to action on the page and just try and optimize the page bit as messy hand before you even start doing any any split testing. So yeah, just have one clinical action. If you’re driving them to a particular landing page, whether that’s your home page or specific landing digestive setup for an ad. Just make it really clear I guess from the ad side as well what they’re going to get when they click through. Marrying up the sort of against the message in the ad with Lenny page of the two things kind of become a little bit. Yeah. One of so many things that the we’ll drive able to bounce away from your side. They if they click through something totally different to what they were expecting the leave in a wasted. Visit so. Just making clear on the page. Don’t give them too many actions to take. So if it’s all about getting them to fill in a foam, then make that really clear action. Give them a reason to fill in the foam until you know, why they showed him what they’ll get. But yeah. Other than making the page as good as he can. Or does he think it can be on the new kind of get into the split testing? Things to test.
05:02 – 10:02
The. You can test different layout different wedding, different colors, different images, all kinds of things. Taking it back further. I would probably use some tools to actually see what people are doing the landing page already. So there’s a number of tools, you can use things like jar crazy eggo this a million among different tools outlet today. Things like eight mapping or scroll tracking take next just fair for people who die things that’s Trump into one. So obvious crazy egg. And not just because I I’ve met the founder, so I kind of like that. Maybe it was worth explaining what what crazy egg does in layman’s terms for people. Yes. There’s quite a few different bills that crazy egg. I quite look like Hajar as well. Yep. Yup. Depends much on his what ages you name buff. I think any kind of heat map tool is probably a good place to stop. And that’s just going to show you where people clicking on your website where the skirling where the mouse’s moving that sort of thing. So you can actually see. Like give you an example because it’s easier to to understand them once upon a time I worked for a car rental comparison sought so it would go on such in a wholly different car rental deals, and you could book the one that you wanted. I another business you’re talking about well has. Brisbane smaller. Right. So we know each other other businesses. Yeah. Exactly. So what I did day. Like, we had I can’t even remember now it was quite a few years ago. One of those tools like gum Hajar crazy Eggen had owned the checkout page where people put their details in any could clearly see intact, they headed to away could actually watch live sessions on the sodden say what people were doing, and you could say that would talk in Email number, and then they get to a section about credit card details, and then just exit the page, and so that’s the kind of valuable information that maybe don’t pick up just by looking at the page yourself. But if you can start to see us uses going through a page in dropping out at a particular point or even a particular point in a whole funnel is pages. Then it gives you really good clear. That’s what we need to split test us. So in that case, it was wedding around credit cards and had that was laid out on the foam. So then we’re able to test a few different options there different wedding different locations on. The foam. And able to achieve like a double digit up list between that and a few other changes on the checkout page where I believe increase conversions. I think it was by that twelve percent, which was you know. Yeah. That makes a real difference in the business. Yeah. I’ve had similar experiences where I used like crazy egg. So, you know, again, crazy bicyc- records session. So it’s almost like you’re looking at the user while their mouth moves around. And I just kept on these hot spots where and hot spots where you’re getting a lot of clicks, and I- recurring on an image. Which had no action point behind any softening hanging people think if they click these something’s going to happen. Sharon, you turn that image into an actual action. And what do you know people talking about the other end? So it’s that amazing experience. I haven’t I haven’t analogy for this kind of thing. Which is if you were if you had a local restaurant, the any like imagine like a little talion restaurant in your in your SABA when you go in there, you always find the Arna behind the BAA on the cash. Register looking at what’s happening. They look at the patriots walking in the customer’s going in and out how many people going into the restaurant and how they’re interacting if you’re going to run a restaurant, you need to say everything that’s happening. If you just walk into the end of the night pick up the tail look at the money and say, oh, look, I might X amount of dollars. I must be doing. Well, you might not. Say the subtlety that happening inside people want not be happy with the process. They might have been bad food cold late service. And so, you know, hey, tracking and mapping allows you to get that kind of vision. So I say that is being almost lengthy quivalent of walking into your own store. And she’s saying the white people are interacting with your website. So it’s great great analogy. That’s exactly. Yeah. A real world example. So I think it’s a fantastic thing to do. I wanted to loop back to something you mentioned a few minutes ago around the single coal to action on a landing page. Now, he’s but you would recommend for people is is removing options like removing navigation removing exits and pods away from what you want them to do in a landing page. Yeah. I guess it depends. It it kind of comes back to goal or your strategy around the page. So if is the home page of your website feel productivity he probably wouldn’t want to remove everything. Yes. But if it’s a maybe running a Google ads campaign and around a specific doctorate specific service.
10:03 – 15:02
You may want to just direct it to a landing page in a good example is using. Lead generation ads way you might drive someone to a page give them a value proposition. So maybe that can downloads you put together something valuable full you’ll market. So if you can think of something that they really interested in put together, a gripe tool or a checklist or little in many evoke was something like that is something that would be valuable to them they go. Hey, I really want that that looks like it’s good some good tips and tricks knowledge. Oh, something that’s going to help me in it. And I’m willing to enter the my Email address to get to to download that book. I think a lot of people have probably seen ads like that. So that’s an example where the ad is really pointing to one thing. Okay. We’ve developed this tool checklist or whatever. And so when you land on the page, that’s really the only thing that you should be having their is just talk about what that is give them the foam to fill it in. And that’s just one simple clear action that you want them to take. So it really depends. And there’s everything in between as well. So obviously, you homepage is going gonna link to other pages on your side. But I think it is important even on the homepage to have a clinical to action not done site audits before where just above the fold on the homepage. So just what’s on the screen without even scrolling or anything there was seven different buttons on this one website to click asking you to do different things. And if people get a bit paralyzed they go so many options, I don’t know which one the clip I’m not going to like any. And that’s that’s a big insight from behavioral psychology, these dyes which is actually if you increase the number of options available to somebody. They get like this analysis paralysis where she don’t make you decision at all and they end up walking away. And so. May be given three options. But I mean, this you just painted. I where it’s a late capture foam as one option. Puts you details in he in grab the white piper. All the all the check this. Whatever happens debate makes a lot of sense. And I wanted to touch on that, you know, we mentioned laid foam, I’m guessing the main strategy there is really to to given a data capture point in a conversion funnel. So it might be that this is a considered purchase. It might be at a Beijing bay into price software, something, you know, it’s a bit more involved. So you’re not going to purchase a new car kind of off a landing page, but allayed capture foam is a logical mid step where you can get a trackable definable point of against conversion. Yes, I work with a lot of debate clients and their tend to have seen affiliate extensive productivity, and maybe a long lead time. And so that’s why those kind of things can help because it’s really just building up that say Email database, and then you can communicate with them nut those leads every time it will be probably wouldn’t use that approach for a, you know, a small patches on ecommerce store or something like that. But the same principles kind of apply in that. You wanna have not clear cold oh action heroism with with TIMMY decisions to make and make that whole the whole her chasing process or the whole purchase get to whatever you count as a conversion just make friction lists as possible, reduce the amount of steps that are in that process in this make it really easy fantastic, sir. I mean, another area of conversion from his Asian whether till Allah like leftover I’m sure you do as well. Like once you get into this space, the fun things to play with in terms of landing page optimization. Do you have some tools that you prefer? You’ve us you recommend for for building these landing pages. If you’re not going to like role is where the you’d like to use that kind of work. Yes. Affray one. That’s pretty simple to use is Google up. The minds. It doesn’t have some of the advanced bills in whistles that some of the paid tools. But it’s a really great place to start. And it doesn’t cost you anything. So and if you starting off with a fairly small sites in in like, a big multinational Koper e com sought with millions of ages, then than the Google told a good place to stop this. Also, all the tools like visual website of the miser or VW as one of the one of the original like guys have been building that for years in there. Yeah. I don’t know how long it’s payment. Feels like it’s been around for about ten years. That’s quite a good job say, yes, same even with those tools like crazy egg and things like that. You know, a lot of as have been around for a while. But they’re around for awhile because they keep innovating. Adding h is just even just the basic functions of the tools are just so useful. Even after all that time. Yeah. The VW. Whoa. Google MAs optimize early. I think is another one. He’s kind of the higher end. Isn’t it? That’s more of a the enterprise level.
15:02 – 20:03
So yeah. And so. Then he kind of move into more enterprise stuff. Like, I’m the example, I gave before about the checkout page to actually use the web trends optimize, which was more of a covert enterprise. Tough solution. Which has a lot mobiles in whistles. But it’s probably not native to my stable. And if you using depends what you websites running on. But if if he using web press, which a lot of people are there websites programs, like a go up to Meisel vigil website of demise. Those kind of things usually work pretty well. There’s a lot of different other plug ins as well that you can use to split tests with would press one of the benefits of would perse is that this many people using in so many people creating things so it is it is great. Isn’t it gets? I’m thinking like are in his at Plugin for WordPress. You just thinking thank you. That makes my AD. That’s why I chose WordPress. You. Yeah. Exactly. But even if you’re not, you know, most of them just have a couple of lines of cover that you copy and paste into your side, and then use their actual tool to to do everything in truly pretty straightforward fantastic’s are are. I’m now in a situation where also thought about my landing page thought about skinny down a rough idea some landing page software or maybe using Google. What’s the respect about that coal to action? What are the areas that I want to be looking to optimize pretty quickly on that page like things spring to mind and things like headlines and images. They other the logical. Go is is it about whatever. Thank applies minutes. Spice on the page is probably what I wanted to be. Optimizing or is it or is there more subtle out within that? Yeah. And and also physician of things on the page as well. So. You know, you probably don’t wanna really long page in most cases, people have to scroll and scroll. And then you’ve got your call to action foam or your button, or whatever it is right on the bottom of the page on. So I would definitely play around with positioning of different elements on the page. Try not to. Yeah. I guess whatever’s above the fold. So that is what’s on the screen when you load the page before you scroll down, that’s the most important stuff. So like, you said the headline by around with with Wooding of the headline. There was a million different schools of thought on how you should write a headline. We’re I’ve had I’ve had a copywriting expert on how many people. I don’t remember which one it was. But you get back to that one. And combine with conversion rate optimization you’ll be on you a winning tickets. Hopefully that you. Oh boy. The what some say what’s right now for you. Like, what’s the what’s the trending conversion optimization that? You’re saying everyone said of jumping onto an focusing on right now. Honestly, I think everyone talks to that not a lot of people. Do it. On the hall of a whole discipline in visual. Right. So I think just getting out there and doing it is is trend that I would love to see more people doing isn’t that interesting people spend tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of dollars dropping people to a website. And then when they get there. They just go. Oh, well, I hope they convert interested to find out is there any or are there any trends at the moment than you? Find a really sort of hot right now that everyone’s focusing on when thinking about conversion optimization. Yeah. I guess there’s a lot of new shining, tools and different things happening in the in the space one thing that comes to mind that you’ve mentioned before to me is is jet books or even just live chat. So we use live chat on a lot of our clients websites. I’ve used it. A lot of. Why is that live chat the company or live chat to like the type of service? You talk about just the type of function so really met a which till you use. But having something on the sought that pumps up office help. That can be quite helpful to if people coming in airing. And so not sure either of it stuck. They haven’t found the information. They looking for the product they’re looking for ways around again, get a donate use the example too much, but the the car rental, in example, winded up putting on chat agents twenty four hours a day because we just tried it with one person for feel as a day until our it doesn’t hurt to have one of the customer service people just jump onto live chat. And we didn’t realize at the time that it would be so popular people just really came to chat to you. Then not so Cain to pick up the phone in coal or actually even Email. But if it’s something that pops up in their face like any notice you’ve been on this page for well. Is there anything that can help you with? It’s it’s such a great way to open that conversation and help them out before they actually leave your sought. And the semi tools to do that. I mean, we mentioned crazy before that even comes built in with chat. So you can interrupt the flow TV watching you website live drug Chattan live person’s been around for a decade laced during their business. And then you’ve got the new behemoths atone up like you into combs who had just again, that’s enterprise level. But that Connor solution is is something else.
20:03 – 25:05
So as the differently multiple solutions out there again, and and it’s funny. I think most people think about it. In terms of conversion conversion rate, optimization that kind of it kind of falls into a bucket of customer service. But if you get into conversion optimization, you can actually attribute value to all of a sudden it becomes a profit center on a call center. Gin and to a real world example like you give the restaurant example before. But you know, if you walked into a camera stool and looked around couldn’t say the the lens of the camera that you’re looking for and then walked out this is walking in and then having a bit of a look around. And then a sales consultant comes over to you. And is there anything I can help you with another looking at those canon cameras. So whatever it is. You can do exactly the same thing with your website base it on the page or productivity looking at and things like Thomas, like bug them as soon as they get to the paid. But maybe they’ve been this thirty seconds of to to give them a hand. And that can be the thing that pushes them over the line. I think we’re winning with analogies tonight. It’s that idea of. Yeah. Every show you walk into someone walks up and says, can I help you with anything? But they make that decision based on where you are. And how long have you been standing there for? So this is just the web version of real retail that we’re talking about here. So it makes a lot of sense. I love it. Yeah. And a lot of those tools to you mentioned into common end few others. But a lot of them will Lincoln with your CRM said he’s got a database of customers. The you have in your sarum. A lot of tools will either have live chat as part of that. Or you know, you can use a separate live chat program to hook into that VAR in the eye or some other way, you can then capture that customers Email address and the behavior of browsing on the website and sorta stuff so definitely look at the tools that you’re using whether this. The conversion rate optimize ation CRM. Whatever it is. You might actually able to link a lot of the different products together. The that you’re using the the one product oh the platform. I’m saying being cooperated more and more is Facebook messenger. Like, it’s interesting. The numbers that are now available and I hadn’t fully appreciated. How brilliant the ply from Facebook walls in this spice until I was shopping at a local Australian electronics retailer you Motte I’ll name them because they did a good job. How I love you. It’s like a gates paradise. I mean the shops if you physically walked to a Yuma. It’s the most impressive thing in the world. But I was shopping online. I wasn’t to show a chat bought because that’s what you do thought. Yep. Off your question, and I had to pick up my kids from school. And so I just shot Jeff walked out, and it’s pretty rude. But you know, it’s like I’ve had enough of this. I I’m gonna time. My kids are gonna be waiting for me at school. I’m waiting in the line at school. Am I find things I looked down at its message? And it’s the customer service rep from Yuma because we’re using Facebook messenger. Bought they were able to keep me engaged. So I was on desktop computer. At harm are then driven to the school. I’m standing outside the classroom. I find things and they found the product I wanted they’re able to replace it laid it all by messenger, but in completely different environment, and they were able to ship it out to me. They ended that dig- got to meet tomorrow or the next day has thought that’s the power of Facebook. If I’m using intercom if I’m using any other. Project platform the minute. I closed that down. I’m gone. I’m out of it like if they captured my data show, maybe they can get back in contact. But with Facebook you’ve got that ability to keep the conversation going, and you’ve created a connection thought. Yeah. Facebook’s on a winning this like I can just see how every business will just produce skins that ultimately just work with Facebook messenger. Because seventy people have at us like well Facebook of Economista was a really using. And there’s lots of plug ins again, the whether it’s. Ciampa fi. Or what press whatever building that a messenger experience into the the whole process giving you order updates and shipping updates and that sort of thing as well. It’s really kind of seeping into all aspects of the the whole process. Yeah. That’s that. Yeah. I was gonna say the example, you gave is just such a great a great way to show half. Facebook has sold the cross platform problem there. Exactly like, you said, if someone hasn’t given you the Email address some sort of personally identifiable information, and then they closed the window. You’ve you’ve lost them. So if they come back on different device, it’s a whole new user to. So that’s a problem that digital marketers and web people have faced a very long time. And there have been different ways of combating. Now, I think that Facebook example, you gave is just such a powerful tool, and it’s just it’s such a better experience. I I used to find it slightly creepy when you know, I’d be say shopping online looking at something, and they knew who I was by on a cookie by Sunday pixel, and then they’d say me the amount saying, hey, I think you left something in your basket.
25:05 – 30:13
And you kinda got oh, I didn’t really ask for that. You worked out who I was. And you sent me an Email with that same that seemed like too much for me. But I don’t know if it’s a time by thing or it’s just the factor messenger. But it just it was a different experience. Well, this is the future of customer service. So an leaky. By speaking about it, just it just totally transformed. What was absolute? Lately, a dead late for them. That was never going to happen turned into a sale. And I just thought to myself yet that is conversion rate optimization and chat just winning beautifully together. Yeah. There’s just so powerful conscious of time. And I don’t wanna make my podcasts emphasize guy for too long. So if someone’s listening to this, and I think to themselves I’m bored into conversion optimization, I spend a fortune in time and effort and money driving people to my website. I’m I’m super came to convert more of those people because it’s it’s a really big with about can poll, but I want to get somebody to help. I want to get an agency or an expert a consultant somebody to come in and help I’m wondering if you can give us a couple of one or maybe two questions that that posing can ask someone who wants to know about conversion optimization that are really test them out and safe. I know what they’re talking about. If that makes any sense it’s kind of like if you can give them the secret hod question. So they can find out. I was his here’s real. And who’s just you know, talking up a big Sierra game. This. Yeah. Well, there’s you know, there’s a secret handshake save to know this. This. No, I think I think it will just ask them again. What would be the first thing that you’d test on my website in why? And just listen to the rationale behind that. It’ll be pretty clear if they try to make it up or if they haven’t bothered to look at your saw ISO, but yeah. In terms of of tools and things like that doesn’t need to be super expensive. So if somebody’s telling you, all you have to buy this tool in that tool, and whatever else is this just so many simple ways of doing it. Now, it doesn’t necessarily have to lock you into a big contract dole. Big piece of software. I think awesome. You know? What would I recommend and any examples that they can give you of of what they’ve done before and some actual concrete before? And after his what it was his what we tested it was at theory going in. But but asking him that fear on as well, so okay, what would you test? But why is the more important question? Like, what’s the rationale behind that? What would you hope to achieve? I think you’ll get a pretty good sense from that. Whether they know what they’re talking about. No, I I liked that logic. That’s to me that’s tapping straight into the experience saying because in theory, you could split test everything, right? You could apply chaos theory. I’m gonna I’m gonna split test. Every single English weather dictionary on these headlines, and eventually, I workout which one’s the best. But experience says you can probably I would imagine you’ve ever look at the science. I I’m pretty confident if I work on those titles all those images, or whatever it is. I’m going to experience an uplift and against this. What experiences in conversion rate optimization? That’s what you buy these. Is your buying shorter tasks like you, basically say we could test everything, but I’m pretty confident one of these three solutions is going to be the answer. And that means you cut down the number of splits, you have to donate. So instead, it is being you can’t just do an AB test. ’cause you go on one of those two things. So I guess you know, when you looking at higher Unix, but what you’re doing cutting down the cost while using their experience. Absolutely. And you can you can install any of those hate map on. Programs pretty easily just have a look at the heat map, and you’ll get somebody it straight away. And then you can go in and go. Here’s the problem that we’ve go and that kind of saves a little bit of time up front, and like you said, you can just focus on that that problem right away. Then and just optimize that rather than optimizing everything. Here’s a really I like that like install an all mentioned crazy equipped mentioned the head of time or a fourteen day trial. So you two weeks before you go in and speak to an agency or consultant installed. Crazy egg. Get all the data send them the logging. And then Robin catch him. A hope they can actually spend twenty minutes having a look at it. And go up he’s the things we’re going to work on here’s why. And it’s going to be based not just on coffee. It’s gonna be a little bit of logic. So in that way, you’ll do whatever agency oh consultant heights, which is probably extract a lot of value. Add we’ll have to actually pay anything. So. Yeah. I think you know. At the end of the day, you should be working on the same page with if it’s an agency consultant or whatever you should be working towards the same goal when you’re on the same team. So I think if you can give them a little bit of that information up front, it’ll it’ll really help them with the process and at the end of the day, you you’ll pay that experience that they have and bring to the table. But yeah, I think if you can go to them us, those kind of questions getting ideas, their answers, you don’t need to necessarily know any jogging or any particular tools or anything to to assess them that way, you’ll get a pretty good idea from from what they tell you in from what you already know that you’ll you’ll business fantastic end.
30:13 – 34:53
I am. And I think I think the Tyco I tape in terms of something someone can do off the back of this is try to install some form of of hate map and click tracking software on the website and get that that visualization of how people actually interacting with your website that I mean if I’ve interpreted right? That’s probably the one thing. Someone can take away in that can rice off. Now get a trial of one of these kind of hit tracking because Lenny party softwares bit hotter. Then things a bit more work, but the click tracking and mouse tracking that seems to be an easy thing to install that seems like that’s the one takeaway brench start with and probably going to give them some kind of inside on that CRO. Yeah. Absolutely. You never know what you’ll on. Onto particular spot. The people are getting stuck at or conversely something that people are really loving. And then you can roll that out into other things you doing as well great. So one last question for you. I’m curious to know, why is this something that you believe in at the moment that absolutely nobody else seems to agree with you on when it comes to conversion right optimization. Well, I think what I’ve touched on the full is just try something. Just just go out there and try the tolls necessarily buy into. You know, the big expensive shiny tools on the greatest latest new. So flare you can’t do it for free. You can do it cheaply, and you can do you can at least get started by itself. So I think the the people especially don’t have the budgets to do it. They might have looked at it ought to hot too complicated in this plenty of people out there breaking their own products and services than going all you have to look into this contract. We need to buy all these extra tools. The point is you don’t necessarily have to you can get started with the basics, and it’s better than sitting in doing. So I think that’s probably my my key. Takeaway is just anyone can do it. I mean, obviously, there’s experienced that other people can bring, but you can definitely start yourself and stopped to unlock some of those insights by uncovering more of that data makes a lot of sense. I like that. I think I think any kind of startup any startup found his listening to this is going to be Kane to something doesn’t cost very much money. And it’s better idea. Did will you don’t have to you don’t have to necessarily employ a huge agency. I mean, you can do. But this stuff he you can do yourself. And if it’s one thing fan of startup companies good at it’s sort of grinding away light at not doing things and teach themselves new skills. So if spot a few people take on, Sarah, that’s a fantastic thing. Because it’s probably the area. That’s laced. Utilized when you think about all marketing as you pointed out already, but if the person is listening and saying yesterday, that’s great. But I don’t have any time because I’m listening to this ends eleven thirty at night. And I want to get in contact with you local riddick’s digital. What’s the best way to find? You all the all the company. Yeah. You can jump onto a website, which is radical digital come to RA DAX digital or social media where all of those under the same name. So just should join inquiry. Your catch me on social. Yeah. Find social such a fantastic way to cut through all the noise. You just like straight in contact the person, it’s not having a chat and business. And. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your times. I look I’ve learned a lot. I’m sure everybody else’s lent a lot, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your his fairly light evening here for us. So I appreciate you taking the time to to chat with us today. Not from until we can probably get for few more hours of battle of the stuff. But I think we’ve covered a lot of the important stuff there. And hopefully, some actionable insights that people can take land start implementing exactly I think we’ll come back. We discuss we’ll come back in a few episodes time. We’ll talk about Email marketing and talk about delivery, and all those kind of extra GI he things when it comes to CR, and I look forward to that second chat with you. Excellent. Sounds good. Thanks again. She is. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode. I hope we’re able to provide you with some great, marketing ideas. So it’ll really help your business has always if you’d like to support me and the show just jump onto chains or wherever you listen to this podcast and write and review those reviews really make a difference and help me reach a broader audience if you’d like to connect the best way to find me. Of course, he’s on linked in following me on social media, which is connecting. And if you could ideas for future episodes or your Maka, and you would like to appear in a feature up site. Just hit me up on late did as well. I’d be happy to have a chat. Thanks, look, alachua speaking with you next week.

Content Marketing Funnels for Startups with Kellie Jade Duggan

This episode takes a deep look into content marketing tactics with Kellie Jade Duggan from Metagenics.

You can hear the full interview with Kellie here or download on Spotify, iTunes or Stitcher.

  • Right Audience at the right time
  • Channel Specific content marketing
  • Equipment needs for your content production
  • Timing your content and funnel positioning
  • the rise of video content and IGTV
  • Facebook live for content marketing
  • Listen to Kellie define “Low-fi and on the fly”
  • we also highlight our lack of knowledge on the names for the different generational names, GenX, Gen Y, Gen Z & Mellinials.
  • Hot tip: keep your content ‘real’ and earn some cut through and authenticity
  • Creating content with a purpose; for the right channel, objective, demographic, engagement
  • the idea of conversational content

Here are some Instagram accounts Kellie mentions

@ethicalnutrients @innerhealthau @therainbowbabes

Don’t forget to help Finnley reach his 10k follower target 😉

Episode Transcript

0:00 – 05:02
Content marketing can be one of the most efficient ways for founder of Assad company to drive that business forward. It’s authentic. It’s engaging and can be a whole lot cheaper than traditional advertising. In today’s episode. We talk with Kelly about the best ways to really hung, your content marketing strategy, how you engage in audience and building content funnels. I’m Jerry Doyle. And this is the facto podcast where we bring the mocking experts from all around the world to you. And awesome advice tips tricks and the things that you can do to drive your business forward. Welcome to this way show. Hi. And welcome to this week’s episode this week where privileged to be joined by Kelly j Duggan who is someone who I’ve had the privilege of working with. But I think months ago we worked on an F M C J Branko Pecci together, and since then Kelly’s gone on to really calm out a niche as in my opinion, a Brandon content marketing, especially round the health FM, CJ sector. So today, we’re gonna be talking about content, and specifically content around social media and peaking Kelly’s Brian to help you with your businesses. Now, you can use content more strategically cycle. Thank you for joining us, Oklahoma. Lol not a problem. So looking to jump straight in because we’re talking to founders and owners of small businesses the way, we always kick off these you’ve got experience now working with some pretty big brands with some decent budgets, and that can be intimidating if you’re a founder nice little coming up against you with you know, it more money for Betty cameras etcetera. So what I wanna know is gene have any tapes of house on his fan of a startup or small business can compete in content marketing of advantages, can they have over the logical per to have got understandably much larger budgets absolutely while. I think what. So I work at medic exile cops that in a health and ethical Nate trance outright out brands. And I think what makes us a little bit different to some of the pharmaceutical companies is that instead of out sourcing content. We actually produce it all in house. So we like to we’re bit different traditional gamma in that we have the ability to to work a little bit more agile, and we’re able to produce content really fast on the small budgets, which is something. That’s very I guess attainable. And possible for for some flack, I found out that doesn’t have the big budgets. It’s a good idea. So if I’m thinking about a culprit that may be. Sending stuff off the studio when agencies and getting stuff ten around town copies quite slow. So as a fan rock that capacity to produce containing house, which means Spade to Mollica, it’s going to be one of my competitive advantages makes a lot of sense. I think as a good strategy in actually is interesting that you’ve incorporated that kind of nimble strategy into a much larger company. Do you think that’s a trend? That’s happening. More and more logic companies studying to baby nimble in bringing the content production in house, or is that something unique that you bring to the table. I mean, I think it really kind. As is reflective of the way that social media is is moving towards at the moment. So traditionally that Facebook is more of a text based platform designed for desktop, but when now moving towards a platform, which is drilling mobile fest. With the advent of faces like the stories fate shot on its to Graham on Facebook. It’s really all about having that moment marketing so being able to cut in the marine experiences end. You obviously catch a lot of in the moment experiences from your mobile device. Sorry, really. We’re you to use Amway bow to to drive a lot this mobile fest content. Interesting, and I think that links back to you. So saying about building your GD or having your own studio. I mean, let’s kind of minimum equipment what kind of set up. Would you be recommending people get someone you spec about a fines, I’m guessing that’s the benefit where these super cameras now in pockets, I’m guessing you can produce a content with your phone. What else would you be adding to that makes absolutely? The thing is we’ve got a lot of technology bills around by vowed devices as well, so you can buy you can you can buy Kimble’s THEO my ball find. So that you can have really smooth Smith content, really high quality content. So my advice visiting hit will JIMBO JIMBO. Yeah. Sorry. Kimball is it’s it’s kind of a device which allows you to hold the fine. It gives you a steady shot. So traditionally Kimble’s full video camera. I am when you talk about acting them advertised on Facebook there, those twisty hand things that allow you to sort of move your hand around, but the cameras toll size still trae. Yeah. So you go Trimble’s you will say God. Yes. Southeast digs for instance. A big thing that weighed moving towards is really looking internally at accents.
05:02 – 10:02
And how we can tell out brand stories for brands through internet tunnel. Ex- ex- bet. Sorry, you know, whether that’s you know. Off the cough interviews with with the in a science lab with with some of our technical expert. So whether that’s we out team of natural gas who he I have have great knowledge in running an impromptu, a like FAQ on Facebook live on Instagram live in and really doing those really off the cuff in the moment experiences using your internal resources and end that wisdom and being able to create really really value. Add obits Unity’s to talk to you. You’ll consumers awesome. What by one what they want United to heal and being outta onto that in real time. Expense to come on. The guy was fined getting someone to come on a podcast is hard little line, filming them. Gee, just have to manipulate the mortgages tenant with the Cameroon. Go action. Well, about sir is working at a company like meta jenex where a lot of stuff natural gas, and they’re very passionate about breeding, the healthy lifestyle messaging that they have a wealth of knowledge that never really passionate about the role that you know, that vitamins and minerals can contribute to a healthy lifestyle. And as a bit of a preventative kind of health. Method. Really? So they have messages that they want to send. So they’re more than happy to to jump in front of the camera and until the stories in spread that wisdom. Then that’s the benefit of working for business where it’s operating to Ohio up, as you know, people are in there for a reason above and beyond just a job in a paycheck. They’re in there because they’re driving some ultimate goal makes lot of sense passionate paper as well. Always make the best contents side. Anyone that’s passionate, you know, you’ve got a bit. You know? No one’s more passionate than than the founder. So I even using yourself as as the content as the expert and. Bringing that that passion through makes for engaging content for an audience. Voice. So I’m curious maybe touching on things that are a little bit wrong to the easy out there in the marketplace wanted some of the misconceptions will maybe even mistakes see people doing what they content marketing when they go live with it. Is there a nephew examples? But what are you saying that they have joing about content marketing the in the wrong way? Definitely speaking your product too much. I think when it comes to content it really comes to bang, adding some kind of value, and I think, you know, sometimes it’s it’s more about thinking about what the customer is is actually gonna find useful, you know, in that has some kind of tangible benefit, and there’s ways to close the loop in what your product didn’t somewhere by definitely not having a product this approach and really coming from a consumer Centric value. Add approach. That’s really good advice. You do see it all the time. Don’t you? Mm recriminations particularly bad at this site. The only content they can produce his we’ve got a job to fill. It’s kind of an easy one onto recruitment agents who really get it. Right. And then provide value add all of a sudden, it’s like all my business takes off. So nothing. That’s that’s really sounded is exactly. In terms of what’s sort of hot right now. You mentioned stories on Instagram is is one particular area that’s becoming physically honk other other areas for content marketing that you see us sort of starting to take off and people should be focusing on twenty during twenty nineteen. Folks, if you look at the at social media in the world of social social media, it’s getting increasingly clotted, the survey different marketing messages in it’s getting hotter and hotter to cut through. So I think for that reason when when you got brands in products competing for people’s attention, a one size fits all approach. Never works. So it’s really about knowing who you’re talking to end creating audience basic mint messaging and delivering relevant interestingly untimely contents that individual, you know, people people want to be treated as individuals demographics as dies. Sorry. Knowing your audience, knowing what your audience once in being able to deliver that right content at the right time for the right person is is really important more important than ever. Advice really is about thinking about the messaging time the president much more than the channel on the tactics. Bryant side so personalization is a big a big big focus for twenty nine content. Marketing definite. I definitely I think it’s also about thinking about what the right China leans at the right time and the right message for that channel. So delivering deliver Todd content not only for that consumer. But but for that channel built for that channel than you. You you can’t have a one size fits all across all the channels as well.
10:02 – 15:01
Sorry, really understanding, you know, which channel sit at different parts of the of the funnel as well. An really really designing content specifically for that channel and that audience of that right time. Actually, taking the time to produce even the same coal content that differently for different channels makes sense. I guess. You know, he’s a logical process. I’m Cain to explore a little bit more on. You’re talking about timing. The delivering the right message at the right time content marketing for a lot of people has been a case of like write a blog price ticket up there. So when you talk about timing how how exactly do you get content to the wrong people at the right time. It comes down to really understanding in the funnel. They gonna be interacting with this content. For instance, a lot of the time an article that kind of sits around, you know, they the consideration. Pat of of the final say, and it can also be used for the qualifying audiences. Well, just you know in the top of funnel as well. So it’s about how you understand web Ahah sitting at the funnel at the time. And I guess designing and considering that content to serve that peppis. Whether that’s you know, remarketing content to take away. Sorry, if you neutering these audiences in may be. If you look at their the consumer time line that customer that journey understanding what content United previously saying have they’re interacting, whether the, you know engaging with the content and then serving. Relevant content at the right time to to push them fed it down that funnel. So for instance, may be they’ve ridge your article. So you’ve qualified them as someone who throat. For instance. Let’s talk about Mendis him say ethical nutrients magnesium is that big hero ingredients. You’ve you’ve you’ve written an article about, you know, ten reasons why you might might be deficient in magnesium. Someone took the finals or we’re talking. Exactly. So it talking top of the funnel. Sorry, we’ve qualified that audience as someone who’s interested in magnesium ingredient. Pat says some kind of you know, using age site that they have. And then what we do is. You know, we really build out I guess sequential content from that the hats off to the pixel is fired on your web page. They read them at magnesium article, perhaps then you can add them to accustom audience, which re-target STAN would something to to push the middle fed it. So maybe you’ve you’ve established in aid. You know, if any magnesium in sorry, you can then target with maybe a bit more products related content. So, you know, about a magnesium, you know, for instance, ethical nutrients magnesium, which is by viable sorry. Is you get more bang about? And it’s really bad. You know, telling that story, then and selling, you know. Giving them that the that raise into the laze. Ties in beautifully with what you were saying about not leading with your product. So did you hear that final in? It’s three or four different phases. The actual product content doesn’t appear until you’re right down to that conversion end. And actually what age that’s when you making the sale. So. Yeah. And so it may be from that sequentially. Sorry. I they now know that United ethical Nate trans has really high quality medic magnesium product. And then to have they been, you know, a targeted something to push in the middle fed the down the funnel. So whether it said free trial sorry attend day free trial of a product or maybe it’s a bit of testimonial content. You know, why other papal United loud finance Webuye that magnesium are really breaking down all the different parts of that customer journey and that funnel delivering the right content at the right time sequentially to to really really push them through the funnel and down to conversion contested. Facebook times like the pixels and retargeting audiences there which make a lot of saints began. And that’s what as a marketer Facebook. So great at giving us is hostile tools that allow us to create finals in their ecosystem between Facebook and Instagram. I’m curious about some of the other platforms out there. Other other channels that you’ll find the moment that assigned to maybe Scola lesson lesson than win channels that you assigned to find a working for content marketing as well. Content marketing, I think there’s a lotta opportunity at the moment with with video content. So it’s something that way we looking with looking fair the towards, but definitely content series as well. Sorry, we’ve got GT bait Instagram Taytay bay, which was recently launched a last year, and that content that is is filmed in in portrait as relatives vertical contents.
15:01 – 20:00
Are I think definitely looking towards more the the mobile fist vertical content and being fish move. I think when it comes to new channels new formats, it’s it’s obviously look to benefit dang that. I move sorry. So definitely I think there’s a lotta open she unity as we move towards more mobile fist, full, Matt psych. For instance, story is like I j I thank God. There’s lots of opportunities to jump on board be a first fist movement really get that those may benefit. Because it’s new and exciting and the same time. Yeah. The platforms probably pushing it in the hope that it works in the same thing with Facebook live Facebook still trying to push live and imminence working. But you get that extra organic boasts that you would normally have got race you if you’re pushing older styles they’ve kind of betted into their advertising ecosystem he has commuted with struggle. So yeah, I think Facebook live Instagram’s stories Instagram TV, these are the kind of things that are relatively new. So it kind of makes sense to cause your attention on that as credit advice. Definitely I think trade inner a lot of the traditional brands is still haven’t really moved into that Vodacom viewing format opportunity sort of old school agencies is still filming with landscape cameras, and the don’t wanna change they ways for the new single genyk says don’t jenex doesn’t even knew isn’t. What are we up to now on you got a better idea than main may jenex? I’m jay. I think now what what’s after the millennials. We’ve got Nathan I remember that does it can be former off why is it X generation Y up to that? Whatever happens. We’ll be back to this generation before we know on again, he’s actually. Sorry. One of the goals for may with the podcast is to give super actionable tips and tricks from PayPal the eyesight, be strategies great. I mean, we wiped towards them. I’m wondering you says I am a trick. That you think someone could apply for content is fairly simple like apply today or tomorrow, and it might make a difference for that business. Once again, just going back to Louisville can you about the vertical viewing format, and how you said, you know, a lot of agencies I still filming in that in that very traditional landscape full Matt people United such as as founded in startups. They have a real opportunity to own that vertical viewing format ’cause you don’t need the big budgets for that. You know? And and you don’t it’s it’s very low fi lo fi and on the fly. I think really slow slide on the fly end on. I think it’s perfect. If you if you really really are in that space and really work on creating really engaging and real personable and authentic vertical content. That is definitely way too bay a lot more competitive against some of the big brands that had the bigger budgets, but on necessarily taking full advantage of the way that that content is moving and that is Boll life by an on the fly. I think. Is now more forgiving, if you’ll real if you’re honest, if you’ll lo fi and on the fly, do you think that consume a generally gives a little bit of sloppiness, you know, maybe a little bit camera movement a little bit out of focus a couple of homes in butts is here and there. Because that’s Dr absolutely well in the wake of old the data breaches in the political controversy, you know, with with the Cambridge scandals in and Facebook really moving towards his transparency. I think these shift has meant people more skeptical about marketing messages, and I think they the relevance of really authentic and real content that he’s in polished is is just so much more important right now. And I think uses a really really really trusting that within tick on polished approach to because it is a bridge will will most of the time. People listening this appropriate to be conducting some form of online comas or transaction. So it is virtual. So you don’t get that walk in get to make the Arna about you’re creating that real feel that maybe didn’t. So maybe the trick is to not try to act big not try to sort of polish everything up and pretend like you some great company. Of Europe company of one person. Maybe rather than writing all your FAQ’s with we or at our company, we like to think that and just be real and say, hey, it’s may I’m one person. This is what I do, and it might actually cut through a bit more. So. Yeah. I think Morgan ever, you know, we need unit as brands we need to be more real and authentic to to rebuild trust. Really? To be too big pod. So now, that’s great advice. I contend building trust olefin tizzy and yet go lo fi. And it probably actually becomes pathetic on the fantastic. Look. This is a hard question.
20:00 – 25:01
I NAR, but content marketing has a habit of nothing measured against results. It’s gonna well. We do because we think we have to everyone else does it. And then historically the one thing they ever measured measured. Social content was likes on curious to know, what are the kind of metrics that you pay attention to your content marketing, and when you want to measure success, I felt it really comes down to you know, how they talk about Elia creating content with purpose. Sorry, when creating content with creating content in mind, the right demographic to the right audience for the right channel but also for the right objective. Sorry, objective digitally. So a lot of the content that way is she’ll content. So we’ll already have in mind our Facebook advertising objective when. When we would building out that content. Whether that’s going to be an engagement pace or conversational pace, or or whether the whether you know, we we want to get sheds with a win. We want. These KP is for for objectives. And at the end of the funnel. Nice and easy. Right. We put a silo at the end or whatever the the ultimate conversion is that top end. You know, I think a win as his is about building that audience if we’re thinking of the content of final then the space is is reach in branding. But building that audience that means we can actually hit the next level of the final. I guess that’s the case objective Ryan, as we know engagement, drives extra Rachel in most of the social channels are those metrics that we previously pooh-poohed said likes. I’m really can’t well Gina what a like if a like this gives us a little bit more reach and the rates gives us more audience not audience can be retarded than we’re probably on the right track. If the objective here, you have in mind in you want engagement, you want likes you you wanna you wanna SATA conversational? You wanna start a conversation than the content that you create United Mesa lends itself lend itself to that in as debate compensate. Content. So we always design content with with our objective at digital objective in mind from found during them beginning content marketing is going to be one of the key things. I wanna do drunk my business forward how much of my budget Sherman. I guess it’s it could be any amount. But how much of my budget’s should be spent on making the content versus all the time spent making the content. I promoting it do do you have ratios or do you? Or is it really a horses for courses kind of thing? I felt you know, there’s no point creating an amazing piece of content. If you don’t have the distribution to allow actually they say enjoy. So I think you need probably more of a budget for they the advertising and distribution pace than the actual content. Nothing. That’s really good advice. If you build it, and no one sees it to even build it. Yeah. Exactly. So I mean, I think we’ve reached a stage now with with social that you kind of have to put money behind him. I think very few of us particularly brands have got the kind of swipe that says if we produce it’s gonna get covered. So I guess for almost everybody content that has to be a little bit of a marketing and advertising budget behind it to get it going get through that inertia. On the more. You can save on the content creation, especially if you can be doing that. We’ve you with your foreign oh with lo fi devices and really low production way with wants to, you know, producing similarly gauging content. I think the more money you have to actually take that as far as you can is probably better spent and there’s so many different tools on the internet. And you know, it you can create content these days as well. Sorry. I think if you can save money in the content creation by doing it yourself, then you can put extra budget into allowing people to actually say that content. He take those acute for the last question. I’m going to ask you what one of the some of the the tools and things that you will online resources that you use or you’d recommend to founders if they’re going to take the content marketing, and do it themselves other some tools that you’d recommend a they check out in. I think you can’t really look much further out than Facebook’s internal tools. Sorry at the moment. You had chills. You can cry instant experiences. You can you can create video is inside the Facebook advertising platform. So I really utilizing Facebook’s free racehorses in tools internally in that platform in a lot of it the time that that secret troll. Sorry, having a look in just jumping in and having a guy and making use of what Facebook is is giving us to pray is is the best way to do it to spend money on tools. These one night. They were winning jumps in and maybe fill that in afterwards. Yeah. Definitely. And you use show juuling will scheduling tools that to pushing out the content of the right time.
25:01 – 27:53
Or did you push everything up by itself? Manually at the time. It needs to go live. There tells us it I like to use the Facebook organic Phages, so I like to to posting platform I like to plan in platform, and I’ll see like to make use of that creative hub where you can create mock-ups for the different pieces of creative than unruly play around. But intensive Instagram, you know, wait, wait fought for ethical Nate trance way way loud. The whole idea of the design fade us Instagram is an intrinsically visual platform. So we like to design every single piece of content as a whole to be visually beautiful and as well presented as possible. So there’s a tool that I use code skid, social and that allows. Us to go to really great native of plan on that you can you can design bit to content. Say however thing’s gonna work stylistically an end visually. Sorry. That’s definitely a good one. And it’s one of the few that part’s straight to Instagram as well. So you can keep video content on further content through Instagram, and you don’t have to push to you mobile Laco. A lot of the other platforms are definitely skid. Social is the the one paid program that I do use. I’m not going to be lots of tools. I’m going to gain drive drive a manual car. I want to know that I’m doing it. Right. So that’s also so Kelly people a cane to kind of see your work in play. Then kind of see how you do your content other company social handles, oh your social handles that they could follow that would represent you’ll work absolutely site. Wave got in a health set in health probiotics which is at in a health AU, we’ve got ethical Nate trance, which is at ethical nutrients, and if you want some really cute dog content than definitely at Finley dot, FOX Finley with two ends as that is my my little little pomeranian, N taste door volt side. We all love wheel love cheat dogs. Visit in your pomeranian has reached the magical ten thousand Instagram. Follow isn’t means you can swipe up now or we used to working towards silhouette into what grad side. Any as I can get to help Finley on his dream to to ten ks. And so I welcome it. You’ll be you’ll be an influence on on Instagram before we know it and thanks so much Kelly. Look, I really appreciate your time. Your advice? I’m sure everyone’s got a lot of tips and tricks out of that everyone who’s headed, you know, your action call now is jumping and follow in light. And let’s get ten. Thanks a lot Kelly. I look forward to following your dog following your adventures and partly bumping into you around the Trump’s again soon. Thanks a lot of your time.

Master LinkedIn for your Startup with Mireille Ryan

Startup founders are flocking to the LinkedIn social network because they are seeing amazing engagement and destroying large brands that hide behind company pages.

In this episode with Mireille I discuss the best ways you can use LinkedIn to gain maximum reach.

Mireille is the CEO of the Social Media Marketing Institute, founder of the Social Media Marketing Awards and an award-winning entrepreneur, and speaker.

What are the misconceptions about Linkedin? What areas are hot right now? How should you structure your status updates? What is it like to have 20,000 followers?

You’ll find the answer to these and other questions in the 12th episode of my podcast.

If you love what Mireille has to say you should check out the Social Media Marketing Institute

If you’d like to subscribe to the Fractal Marketing Podcast you can do that via these links SpotifyStitcherGoogle Play or Apple iTunes

Why blogging is crucial for your Startup with Caroline McCullough

How can a startup founder create a blog that can compete against a large company with deep pockets?

What are the misconceptions about blogging?

You’ll find the answer to these and other questions in the first episode in the second season of my podcast.

This season I’ve changed the format and now I’m interviewing marketing professionals with the express objective of extracting advice and tips for founders.

In the first episode, I chat with Caroline McCullough from Writally 

If you’re a founder blogger or just thinking about starting a blog, then jump onto SpotifyStitcherGoogle Play or Apple iTunes

Do we need a better definition of a Startup?

Assume grade 7 debating team voice: “The dictionary describes a startup as a newly established business”

When you hear the word ‘startup’ what do you think of? Hipster workplace with millennials nursing a craft beer decked out in the latest tech? Maybe not quite that clichéd, but when I hear the phrase ‘startup’ being used in association with small businesses like restaurants or hair salons – my spidey sense tingles.

Am I wrong?

As Shakespeare would have it, “a rose by any other name would smell as sweet”.

But what makes a rose a rose?

The term ‘startup’ has been as maligned as the word millennials; being young doesn’t make you an ungrateful avocado monster with no work ethic, and being a young new business doesn’t make you a startup.

Maybe it’s semantics. But then again, maybe it matters.

But what is a startup, really?

As has been said by many: A startup is a company working to solve a problem where the solution is not obvious and success is not guaranteed

But couldn’t that be any business? Surely, a startup and traditional new businesses differ in several ways.

And if so, why try and claim yourself as a startup if you’re not one?

Remember when there were only a handful of supermodels? Christy Turlington, Naomi Campbell, Eva Herzigova, Helena Christensen, Claudia Schiffer and Elle Macpherson. (And yeah, I had to google all of those names). Now, whether the annoying progeny of a Rolling Stone or a Hollywood love child, the term ‘super’ seems to apply to anyone who’s paid a lot to model.

It’s the same thing with startups. If it’s at all possible for a business to be ‘sexy’ then perhaps we can see how startups are the supermodels of the entrepreneurial catwalk. And when you look at how those supermodels have progressed, it’s easy to understand why so many business founders are eager to describe themselves that way. I mean, why be a model if you can just brand yourself as a ‘supermodel’.

I often find myself (irrationally) annoyed by some business owners describing their business as a ‘startup’ which has given me a reason to try and better define what I believe a ‘real’ startup is.

For me, a startup needs to be striving for the betterment of their customer with a business model that can scale. Better + Scale


A startup is a business that makes something better. Not better for you the founder, but better for your customer. It disrupts, challenges existing practices and innovates.

Better can be more efficient, effective or equitable. (The 3 E’s of a better startup )

It is not a market opportunity. A market opportunity is a chance for you, the business owner to make some money through smart positioning. There is nothing wrong with this, but this is not a higher calling, and it indeed can’t be defined as being rooted in a better customer product.

For example, an exclusive distribution right for plastic zip ties is a market lead opportunity, a long time ago a when the zip tie was created it could have been a startup, but not anymore.

A new Mexican restaurant in an underserved region is a market-lead opportunity. A new flavour of a carbonated drink is a market opportunity.

Many existing definitions of startups focus on the opportunity to scale and even accept a market gap. I want to propose today that a market lead opportunity does not represent a startup. That is not to say that there is not a gap in the market, it is just that the market is defined by the problem and the solution first.

Solution based products are designed to solve a problem, and the people with this problem are your target market.

And herein lies one of the core attributes of a startup, its culture. You see, evangelistic employees join a company because they align with the company vision. That vision is connected to a better world which the company will help to create by creating a solution to a customer’s problem.

And at the heart of this culture, is the startup founder.

Where supermodel Linda Evangelista famously wouldn’t get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day; a startup founder will stop at nothing to see their vision realised. Startup founders don’t track billable hours, or clock off at 5. They have a fire that motivates to keep going in the face of uncertainty. And what I’ve found is startup founders tend to be open, honest people keen to share their experience for the common good. They talk openly about their failures and their plans, driven by a sense of a greater purpose.

Without this greater purpose, you can’t be a startup. In my experience, this is why startups feel the way they do when you’re inside, yes you’re a business, but you’re a business that is creating efficiency, effectiveness or equality.

There are many startup definitions that try to quantify startup culture as part of the definition of a startup, but this approach is looking at the resulting culture rather than the cause which is the high purpose of the startup’s problem-solving mission.

Now, because a startup is solving a problem, it means that the path to success is unclear. You need to explore and discover this new path to success. This is a critical characteristic of a startup, they are exploring new groups, creating new standards and rules.

Just like Edmund Hillary climbing Everest, he knew to pack, food, water, shelter and seek as much local advice as he could. A startup founder has basic rules they need to follow, but the core of their business, the problem they are solving is uncharted territory.

And here’s the kicker. Once you’ve found the path, it will be easier for others to follow you. So if the core proposition of the new business has already been mapped out, then it is not a startup. If you’re an Uber clone, you might be a new business, but you’re not a startup. This is also the reason why a startup seeks venture capital and not a bank loan. If the path was well documented then a Bank would be willing to lend against known risk variables.


The second factor is scale. The second half of my definition is generally accepted by most people who have defined startups.

A startup founder does not trade time for money. The more time you put into your problem’s solution, the better your chances, but there is not a direct relationship between time and money.

This is the second reason Venture Capital is required and attracted to a startup. Not just because a bank won’t lend, but because the solution needs to be scaleable.

It is possible for a Startup to outgrow its status as a startup and for me; this is when the business has proven their ‘better’ solution at ‘scale’. The business has ‘solved the problem’ they set out to fix.

I believe a true startup founder sets out to create a new scalable business that at its core solves a problem that has not been solved before making life better for the customer, thus disrupting the status quo. ‘Better + Scale’.

A quick legal checklist before starting an online business

You have a great idea for a product or service, you have your website up and running, and you’re getting ready to go to market online. It’s an exciting time and the last thing you want to think about is your company’s and your website’s legal compliance. But it’s an important step to take to ensure that disputes over the use of your website and the purchasing of your products/services don’t arise, or if they do, that you have the right protections and agreements in place to protect both you and the consumer.

There are many legal considerations when it comes to creating an online business and below the team at Cubed by Law Squared have pinpointed some of the most important to ensure that you begin your startup journey on the right foot.



You might have a very clear idea of what your website and products or services will be used for but this is not always obvious to the people who visit your website. A well-drafted Website Terms of Use (WTOU) is integral as it allows you to articulate the purposes and the permitted uses of the website. It also gives you the ability to indemnify yourself in the instance that someone uses your website for an unauthorised purpose.



Terms and conditions are also a useful document to put in place for your website particularly to govern any monetary or service exchanges. Website Terms and Conditions create IP rights, and impose rights and responsibilities on both the user and the owner of the domain. A Terms and Conditions document ought to contain details about how a commercial transaction unfolds. How do your customers pay for and receive your goods and services? How much do they have to pay for them? Having these details set out in black and white helps to prevent unnecessary disputes arising and allows for speedy dispute resolution.



If throughout the course of your business you are collecting, using or storing your customer’s information you need to have a privacy policy in place to govern these processes. Privacy Policies should be bespoke and tailored to your business, the way you handle and collect data and the purpose for which you collect that data. Your privacy policy needs to be compliant with Australian Privacy Laws and also may need to contemplate the General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR) applying to all European Union citizens. It is critical to understand that if your business collects sensitive information (as defined by the relevant laws), then your data handling and collection needs detail attention.



On a website intellectual property (IP) can encompass anything from the name of the company and its logo to the source code in the background. Protection of your IP is important to a company as it preserves your rights to those elements now and into the future and stops others from using them unnecessarily unless permission is given through an IP Assignment or Licence Agreement.

Protection of IP often is a process of trademarking your designs, logo and name (among other elements of your website). If you are looking to commercialise or protect your IP for the benefit of your business, you can contact the team at Cubed by Law Squared for more information.



Return policies and product defects often arise in the area of consumer law when online businesses selling goods end up in trouble with consumers and in serious situations, with the ACCC. It is often tempting, or seems logical, to exclude returns or exchanges on items or goods purchased more than three months ago; however, ensuring you are compliant with consumer laws is important. Some key areas where businesses get it wrong on returns:

  1. ‘We do not provide refunds’ – this is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law and should not be written anywhere on your website;
  2. ‘No refunds on sale items’ – same as above
  3. ‘Major faults vs. minor faults’ –
    • If MAJOR – the consumer can elect to have a replacement or a refund for the goods or services
    • If MINOR – the consumer has a right for the fault to be repaired without a refund


— Grace Cue, Legal Project Officer, Law Squared

Startup Pitch Deck Special – Podcast Episode #10

In this episode, I discuss pitch decks for startups looking to raise funds.

A few quotes from this episode:

  • Everyone is a pitch deck expert, some of the advice will even be good
  • You can get some real confidence when you see how basic YouTube pitch deck was
  • Pitch decks are designed to be “pitched” not emailed
  • A great pitch deck has very few words on it
  • A pitch deck is not a business plan
  • If you don’t win an investor’s heart you’ll probably never convince their head
  • You want to start your pitch deck with a story
  • When you pitch you need to create both ‘fear’ & ‘greed’ within your potential investors
  • Create a vision for the future with your pitch deck
  • Make sure you add the ‘secret sauce’ to your pitch deck
  • Please don’t ask investors to sign an NDA before you present your pitch deck

pitching your startup


Here are the pitch decks I talk about during this episode.

Ep9: SEO for Startups Part 2

Choosing the correct SEO keywords, asking for those links and the importance of deep links with a focus on accounting sites. Plus I discuss dogfooding.



  • As an SEO you can tell when a page is built for SEO gain – 3:05
  • It’s Google’s job to work out if your page is offering value or is just there to collect traffic  – 4:50
  • If you’re ranking #1 but not seeing any traffic, it is possible that people are not searching for your target keywords – 4:55
  • Use Adwords to make sure the keywords you’re targeting for SEO actually have demand – 6:40
  • Creating lots of keywords targeted pages without much SEO authority will not win you much traffic – 8:00
  • Hotlinked images can be an easy way to pick-up some easy links – 8:20
  • Embedded videos will increase your visitor dwell time and therefore give an SEO boost – 10:00
  • Make sure you optimise your images to reduce your homepage loading speed for an SEO boost – 11:25
  • SEO is like an F1 car, onsite SEO is like your aerodynamics and your links are your engine – 12:50
  • Once an article on a 3rd party website has had it’s ‘day in the sun’ the long-term value to your business is the link – 14:45
  • To me, it is counter-intuitive for journalists to reference a website without providing a link – 16:10
  • You don’t lose SEO power by linking out, if you don’t link then it is like not voting – 16:49
  • To not add a link to an externally referenced website is just bad internet Etiquette – 18:15
  • Getting social signals to your website pages send Google good ranking vibes – 19:30
  • The title of your page is more often than not what appears in Google results in blue – 22:20
  • Matching your page title to a user search not only increases your ranking but also the click-through rate – 24:20
  • Dogfooding is using your product just like your customers would  – 27:12