Sales for Startups, if you’re a founder you’re in sales

Like it or not, if you’re a founder of a Startup company your in sales.

In this episode, I chat with Matthew Whyatt of Velocity Selling. Matthew is a successful entrepreneur, having run his own businesses and in particular sales teams since he was 22, regularly outselling the long-established players in a number of markets.
Matthews’ relentless thirst for knowledge and his ability to apply that knowledge in real-world situations makes him a truly versatile salesperson. Matthew has owned companies with sales in excess of $100 Million in diverse areas such as IT and Software Consultancy, Real Estate, Health, Business Licensing and Franchising.

Highlights:

  • Salespeople are the best salespeople
  • Sales and Marketing need to work together
  • If your conversion rate Sucks, then pushing more leads through marketing is a waste of time.
  • People are generally lazy thinkers
  • I think the founders have an advantage
  • Make sure your email is talking to your CRM
  • ZoHo – it is cheap, easy, flexible and has a great community.
  • Don’t have a copy with a person unless I’ve qualified the value on the person
  • “have a virtual coffee”
  • Find the Sneezer – the person who can refer you to someone who can refer you more than one person
  • Managing time in a founder’s life if super important
  • Don’t abdicate the function of sales
  • Salespeople default to positive
  • “are you ready to belly up to the bar for a big slice of rejection pie”
  • Business owners who don’t understand sales set their salespeople up for failure every day
  • How do I get that first sales meeting?
  • Everyone loves to have their opinion asked

Transcript


Sales for Startups, if youre a founder youre in sales

00:00:00 – 00:05:04

Whether you realize it or not sales is very much part of the founders job. Not only could you be selling to customers. But you’re also to sell to investors here, employees and your friends and family after old. They’re the ones questioning why you started his journey in the first place on today’s episode. We talk all about sales. We try to help you become a better salesperson, even if it’s not a skill that Ye would instantly side that you have I’m Jared Doyle. And this is a facto podcast, right experts. From around the world to help you drive your business forward. Let’s get into this week’s episode. Hi. And welcome to this week’s episode where we’re going to be focusing all around sales and selling and how you can drive your business forward this week way. Joined by Matthew watt, who is the CEO of velocity selling. And luckily for us Matthew has a haven experience in beta based software and technology companies helping build scalable solutions, which is absolutely perfect. If you’re a founder out there and you’ll building a SAS dot up. Matthews executive kind of person you need to take advice from Saint Matthew. Thank you so much for joining absolute pleasure. How are you? I’m I’m very well. I was just just before we started the show. I just mentioned I had an unexpected delivery. And I’ve just run up the stairs carrying you stand up this. So if there’s a deeper breathing, and it’s episode that’s entirely because I’m unfitting for no other reason Totta podcast. Exactly sorry. Look people listening to this podcast by and large either founders of companies, they’re working in startup companies, and silence is often note the thing that they put down on this day. You don’t say sort of founder and and salesperson and so when I’m really keen to chat to the Stott hear about is. How does what does it look like when a found a has to take on sales? Like, how do they go about doing sales, inC, publicly competing bid veteran sales people who are out in the world working for large organization. That’s great question. And one thing I side of a lot of people is actually the fanned out the person came up with the idea row design, the audio is actually a really great position. They’re in a great position simply because they’re able to actually tell the story of how they went from being from in have I came to actually design develop and deliver the product they they can tell the story about how they soar problem. What that have that problem manifested in other areas in the world, and I. Routed to rather than complain about it rather than being a victim of it. Actually, go ahead and solve that issue. And that story is so powerful when you’re actually being the founder and being the the person who starts that fire. So I think that the the funnily enough, I think the fans out there who are listening to this actually have an advantage are of the Korea South post because if you look back at Korea South posted linked in profile or something like that that sort of jumping from one business to the next or let’s save them even been involved in a really big corporation full for many many years. They just don’t hold the same white is when the founded can go out and site, I saw this. So I sold it, and that’s a really great position to be in. And you can tell that story over and over this has lots of different ways, you can tell that story certainly through social media. And that’s really the the greatest thing to where the happen to I found a right now is that social media pace way. You can actually switch on. Facebook live switch on you’ll video. If you’re not comfortable with iceberg live, switch on the video and just talk about our soul this happening. And I solved by doing this. That’s really interesting. And I I totally agree with you. I can say that having that story having that passion having that origin story that you can dig in say, I’m not just selling this because it’s my job on selling it because this is my greater purpose. This is what I’m trying to achieve. So I can I can absolutely say how that’s an advantage. And it’s interesting for me. They you’ve kind of intersected Miwa held which I often think about which is marketing. So I think about Facebook live, and I think about it from a marketing point of view that dovetails beautifully into what you’ve just said, which is well, actually, it’s the side of the sales pitch. And I guess that’s where the two departments or disciplines actually, intersex absolutely star in marketing if traditionally and culturally, not really played well together, I was reading micro bushes book from Hobbs spot. And you know, he is sits and this is absolutely true. That salespeople view marketing is the ads and cross section. And then marketing these Siles as the as the slick suits and ties section and sorry. And really these two departments need to play really well together. Actually, I need to play seamlessly together. And that’s why a lot of businesses side that your sales and marketing manager now you can’t have old marketing because that’s just it. And if you can’t convert sil-, so so business mess. He business masses essentially leads in multiplied by conversion right equals number of customers. Number of customers. Multiply by transaction. Value is multiplied by times that they purchase from you is revenue. Then of course, you take away costs. Now, the pot that’s important. There is the fire stats with the lead coming in. 00:05:05 – 00:10:00 But then after that if you actually suck it conversion if you don’t know how to charge for your end saw a fantasy so many people say, oh, well, it took me six hours to build. This Sowell Bill six multiplied by two hundred dollars an hour. That’s the cost, and that’s a huge issue for a lot of technical businesses out. There is they undivided a ten fifteen twenty years of experience the shoulders standing on. Of the intellectual property of the mentors that aren’t value that so yes, it might only take you six hours to build the thing or or execute on the on the widget. But really it’s the six hours multiplied by the number of years to actually get this. So there’s a number of elements. Once you’ve got the leading if it’s a leaky bucket, if you’re not closing the premium number or the optimum number of deals if you’ll conversion right sucks than just pushing Malays while set will. Yes, it will get you more sales, but you’ll be super busy. And actually the later you get you get a great customer who’s absolutely perfect for you. He’ll be an amazing Mackey Connie gutter the mock and tell everybody how good you’ve done a good job you’ve done. But if you actually don’t have a good conversion there, you don’t get that deal. You don’t get another bottle that cherry. Yes. Sorry. True. Isn’t it you often you do any get one chance at most companies? And yeah, if you if as four in pitching, your idea to company doesn’t work you probably not going to get invited back in. You know, you absolutely significantly change your proposition. It’s like I’ve I’ve looked once. I’m not gonna look again, my time’s important one. People are generally lazy thinkers, and whether that’s I whether that’s you’re selling betas say all beta bay people wanna put you in a bucket. So if that means that I’ve looked at you’re offering your sales process was sucked always nonexistent or your ability to articulate your value was terrible non-existent. They’re not gonna get rot. I know that I don’t need to talk to Jared anymore because it doesn’t fit on aids. And in next time you come around in that marketing SoKo next piece of marketing you show them. It doesn’t matter. You’ve got to be you’ve got to be five times better than you were last time and you’ll out your first approach to even get that airtime yet. So true is it’s it’s the fest. Perception is what’s it like what the way all ready now? What bucket can I take you in and then making the segment from that? So I guess it’s how you frame you’ll your proposition early on is gonna make the biggest difference in how you can sell it. And how much you be have a sell it full. So I think I think. It’s a great idea. I’m Cain to start talking and get some ideas. One air everyone explore is sort of sales techniques, but the other areas just m just because the audiences is found is in probably a low technical founders. They always loved tools and things. So it’d be remiss not to ask you around different sort of sales tools, and we all know styles falls. But other different tools that you’ve used you commended for different especially for small businesses. It may be one a dip in spend tens of thousands of dollars their little tools or apps that you recommend if doing sales I’m still lately. Sorry at one stage. I had seventy people working full me we had a really lodge southbound lodge service. We my background is actually building software and selling like, that’s what I did. The last time I ride line of code was twenty years ago because it really wasn’t wear. Always. I was best useful in most useful in the business. So I ran the south names. And so the first thing every business needs to recognize that the sales marketing machine their sales and marketing business, and if you don’t think the thousand market. Eating business as probably not why you’re getting the number of south that you want. Like, that’s the first thing that people need to understand sorry side of the reason telling you, this is Suzie circle back to I have seventy people working for me at one side selling various technological solutions also doing consulting for mid tier and enlarge businesses. And so we used Salesforce, you mentioned south of that’s tonight. That’s the are the end of the IT so nobody ever gets sexual buying IBM in the eighties nineties, whereas nobody’s person’s gonna get sex for buying south Salesforce. But that’s bringing a bazooka to a fistfight, it’s super powerful. But as probably other powered than for watching ninety nine percent of my customers, I recommend using Zohar said, I hate you right tool set. Great little fun. Things aren’t one of the tools that I use networking a really important thing to do if you’re a founder, if you’re trying to hustle get out there and actually make people are do that. First of all, that’s the first thing. I would absolutely recommend. If you’ve got no budget, just a gripe. Idea with a cool pace of technology, Osama budget, your funding, engineering funding, whatever else, you need to actually get out there and actually start having communicate conversations with customers in the how you do that these three networking and so in that conversation, you might meet somebody. Now, you’re technical Fanta grab Zog how if you’ve got there’s a app in Zohar code leads and what you can actually do which a fan. 00:10:00 – 00:15:01 Pretty cool is can take a photo of your business cop that will then load that OC aloe that happened to my MCI things. I can then say how I met you. I can say linked I can say networking or dinner, all lunch or coffee got these categories. And then what I do is. I got of met Jared had a coffee with him scan that in and then what actually will happen is. I mock him his coffee, and then the Email immediately would go as saying highgrading great meeting you today at coffee he is a couple of wise to connect with me. And it’s because it’s instant and because it’s it’s on the front foot. It’s not trying. To sell anything. But what it does do is? That person goes oh was nice meeting. Matthew, and that’s a free app sits on your find Teke photo. And you look like you’ve got half an idea about technology as well. I love the I’m going to have to check that out. I’ve used pipe drive a bit. And that’s just because he connects with a whole bunch of other maps and tools and things, but yeah, I’ve used a bunch of different tolls. And the one thing I now is if it’s too complicated in it’s too hot. And I, you know, I don’t use it as soon as you don’t use it totally becomes a burden. Ranjini? It’s like I remember one agency. I’d go back in retrospect of -ly every week Philly in my my my my style’s pipeline software. And you think it’s not working like it’s supposed to help doing not just me and sorry, so Zohar also plugs into all my emails if I sent an Email to somebody who’s in my database through my Jason g mile J sweet that’s already automatically logged in there. I can get a fine coal just the other die from a personal spoke to back in September introduced himself, a sort of remembered had Ovide recollection, I clicked into I soil. The emails aren’t up an Email that he and I communicate on and wall sees chatting art quickly scan win. That’s right, boom. I’m in the conversation, and I’m away. So so Mike show. Your Email is talking to you. You a your CRM and make sure it’s easy. So my big tip. There is a certainly it’s cheap. It’s easy. It’s flexible this got a great community. So when buying apps when looking at and this is actually even for developers look for the look for the flagship with the biggest community around it. So for example, they absolutely you know, the the apple app store that’s got the biggest community. So it makes sense the develop is actually build stuff that sits inside that community. Because it’s like, you know, it’s the difference between setting up a shop in Westfield with you know, tens of thousands of people rolling through every week rather than setting up a single shop on the side of the highway yet, they can still see you. But there’s not foot traffic, and that’s where you need to be in a marketplace with somebody’s predisposed to purchasing from you. And that’s in the app store. That’s in the app store or the south force app store. Yeah. Love that advice. I’m king too. Because you know, we’re talking about making connections in having those meetings and one thing on our with found is they’re often time poll at the developing a product the doing their accounts looking after staff. So if you’re looking at lades commune side, they’re gotta mocking the pop with their marketing departments most Malays themselves as well. They’ve got a few leads coming in. How would you recommend they manage those leads to work at where they need to focus our efforts, maybe even around laid scoring because I guess one of the most frustrating things is the Email that says, oh, we should grab a coffee, and you go, and you have a coffee, and you think well, why am I here? What am I doing and its travel time in coffee time in three hours lights, and you haven’t done anything. It was a waste of time. Are there any sort of tapes in advices from a salesman his point of view about how you should prioritize that time or even work at who where you should? So the very first thing I’d do is I’d I’d have coffee with people unless I’ve qualified them. And I know what I’m doing article for this morning with a good night of mine. He’s a good night at a coffee acey. I have coffee eat too with my friends, and I don’t need to qualify that conversation. Everybody else needs to qualify and on the and that means you actually need to understand who you’ll perfect customers who what problems? Do you sell? For that pithy, custom. And when somebody says, hey, let’s have coffee fund. Yeah. Sure. I’d love to have a virtual actually really busy to that. Let’s have a virtual coffee. Let’s talk for fifteen minutes on the phone arm. Stealing virtual coffee, led his absolutely something. I’m gonna do. Now. I’m just gonna say rather than do that. And you can just jump on the phone or even video chat, hundreds of hours a month aside by people actually doing coffees and that that also at the same time qualify. Sorry qualified by accident a standing what is the upside value here? Now, there’s lots of you don’t want to be completely missed hell would you like to purchase something from me right now, you qualify to have a coffee. So there’s a few visit this quite a few times when you need to build a relationship in that might be running at a parallel line or or an ad at a law in this not directly with your perfect customer. So that might be you’ve done some research in the marketplace and realized that these companies are currently selling to my perfect customer while what go have a coffee with that guy, so consulting him. So if your a just selling assess product that helps particular business achieve a set goal will then what other companies that are aligned that on competing. Can you actually saw it up to that would actually help them add more value to their offering? I love good ideas. 00:15:01 – 00:20:05 I said this is the this is. Like, the concept of Seth gardens concept around like sneezes to this is idea of if you’re going to go off to somebody finds somebody who can influence maybe not going to be a customer themselves, but potentially refer you to ten eleven twelve other customers, so you’re not shooting. Absolutely. I mean. I mean. Finally enough, Jeremy and think about your customer buys this is this is exactly what I’m talking about. Sorry. I work with Betabi software and technology companies and guess what marketing agencies. I have the most communication with. And that sounds odd. Gee whiz. I’ve just pulled back the curtain there. But you know, it’s it’s really really strategic about your time money comes and goes, but time only goes, and and so we need to actually. Copy quite you’ve just come up with off the top of your head. That’s actually from Bob year. Chuck the founder of velocity selling its philosophy selling so. Okay. It’s it’s absolutely not. I am plays. Anybody? Who’s got any takeaways? Steal it off probably stolen ninety percent of my thoughts. Anyway, I stress about a do that yet. Sorry to God your time. And and that’s one of the things and managing time in a startup or a fan as life is super important in getting those one thing, I do feel the Mike actually look they founded the Auburn his time and try to actually get them doing back to what they actually do best which is typically programming, and let’s get them back to do that bit. And you know, one of my customers, for example, they really don’t love running the epistle the business side, they’re involved. But the the best is when their programming and then the last couple of weeks, I’ve seen the think have come into the office IB once for half a day. The rest of the time has them at home running and programming and doing the work that GM in place. They’ve got people running the show now, and that are sort of stepped back from the operations, and that’s gonna that’s a very effective. Yes, if selling insides release something that you, Don. It like an you paint a picture there of a technology. Fanta who we kind of imagined quite nerdy reserved yet look at their shoes serve. It’s not their strength than as quick as possible. Focus on your strengths and bring someone else in who can make a difference. I guess that’s it’s it’s nothing. Actually, we want to cover off on my dismissed ICU early. Dies of mon- consulting is that is done abdicate the responsibility for sales because you want to make sure that you’re actually adding asset value to the business. So if I am a technical fan, and I have a I guess gonna play salesperson post inside you’re out. You’re a salesperson go sell things the missing pace areas. The businesses I’ve worked to win off actually recruited trained salespeople full them that salesperson gets up starts doing their job. And then eventually leaves will there’s been nine knowledge transfer into the business, and the business is actually not better off other than that person’s not the very first step that before you hire a south knew before you ABC. Kate that responsibility. You need to understand what the strategies the south process. You need to understand what you’re going to be measuring the very worst question that anybody can ever ask when it comes to Siles is. Hi, Jerod, how many salads coming in this week because that’s like asking are away by from Brisbane? That’s like asking the Brisbane Broncos won’t they won’t the school debate the end of the match. It’s a frustrating question. But I’ve been on the receiving end of that question. And you just think how. Oh. What’s the default the positive and early opposing who defaults to positive is going to actually have a long career in sil-? Because really, it’s I, you know, let’s be honest here. It’s it’s are used to set a Moi jokingly cited some of the south real are you ready to belly after the bath for big sauce rejection pie again today United? So once you and prosales can cope with that. Not everybody can. But it sounds people that default to to to positive and saw thanks. We’ll have had three great conversations this week. So Jared, I’m getting three sows. But if you had actually put up south prices implies, and your I would imagine how the metrics sitting behind that. There’s a lot of science guys into Siles. You actually go back and look at that. You got what actually takes three dry conversations to create two proposals to create one sound? So so Matthew that’s really clever, but you’ve actually got one south coming in. Right. Yeah. Makes makes a lot of sense. But I I must say I just saying this is ringing in my head where I would do exactly the same thing. And then you said it said expectation of three and then at the end of. The month. You’re how many did you call this one? Will you you’ve set expectations of three you’ve closed one? You know, you start next month off feeling a bit like a failure. So south you set the details up for failure every single die and business owners who don’t understand the science behind Siles set. This sounds people up for five. Yeah. Constantly. Yeah. No, it’s a it’s a really tough thing to do. And and look I often wonder whether or not sale should be a standalone function or whether in the company should be part of everyone’s function. 00:20:05 – 00:25:01 So say if you talking about an agency, you know, I’ve never really ever seen someone with a title of sales business development. Really do a good job. I always find what happens is the most senior strategist thought doing the business development themselves. So they Cobb off twenty percent of the time to do that. I wouldn’t found that solution. But I guess it depends on the type of business as well. Absolutely. It does depend on the business. But I truly believe that everybody in the business has I circle of influence and everybody can’t understand the sales process. Everybody can. And this is actually one thing I do for my clients. I actually get them to we math out the sows process the elements the problems we solve the why that we actually dipped positioning statements, and they’re on the wool everybody from the clean it to the CEO knows the south process and also everybody inside the business is in is engaged in selling. So for example, one client they’ve just brought in where the customer service represent a representatives. So these people who device just answer support tickets. The new part of the job is a couple of times a week. It’s a colon. Existing customers. I hang out with no agenda, and that creates a oh, you guys actually give crap and that is sales as really interesting just the idea of rather than sitting quietly on an account or a client recurring billing his the ring up and just check how things going proactively because you might actually you could potentially even catch a problem that when you didn’t know about you catch it early. Oh, this is niggling inau year. You know this. I can’t change whatever. The whatever the issue isn’t. It might not be worth sitting. In writing a five hundred Email and getting through the support system, but a much just be with all year. Actually now, the mentioned it, and boom, and you’ve got a conversation their goal internal styles as opposed to sort of outbound is this you’re not remember just like internal styles that they also. But it’s part of that it’s part of the framework. So everybody in the business should be engaged in that process. Who’s, you know, so certainly customer service, maybe not your hardcore engineer whose up to resemble buzz in coding every day. But but certainly the the the accounts people who are who following up accounts. There’s no reason why that campus in Kansai, hey, going yet, paperless. And and you know, if you wanna give it more technical, you can actually say all where he released this last month has that helped or hindered. And if anything comes up anything hard or Silenzi, hey that that’s a great question. Can I get Fred to contact you? And go from that actually, get the visual of the technology person. Like the president like you said up to their elbows in code. But I can just imagine. How powerful would be one of the most senior Kotas behind a assassin business. Did actually, you know jump on the phone debugged something sole something maybe even bak- featuring it’s because you God’s down as well. Right. You’re on your third level support. You speaking to the technical co founder, you’re not really thinking of selling, you know, you don’t think you’re going to be sold for that time. It’s probably the exact my house most likely to happen. Absolutely. You’ll defenders of the listening. He has that growth through the business. I need to realize that if you’ve chosen to being on tra- preneurs, then they’ll be continuing requirement fee to get in get back involved in that pace and yet deploy daren’t done wheel amount to every meeting. I made that mistake and nearly dies as well. We’ll the mat to an unqualified meeting, and I apologize for that profusely as a south person as as a consultant. But you know, you really wanna make sure that you’re qualifying them. You’re getting the value day. And when you do roll them out. It’s like you do need to bring the bazooka. Yep. So let me just live back a little coffee mating. And just if we put the show on the other foot, and now I’m doing Siles for my my software business will my my start. I’m trying to get that coffee mating. What’s the what’s the trick to make it happen? The otherwise I had to get someone to actually turn off of that coffee meeting. How do I get that initial contact because that’s probably the bit where most people really struggle. It’s a lot of a little cheat chat a bit of engagement. But actually, how do I get the conversation and actually get that first sales mating with somebody? Is there any tips or tricks source of processes or anything Ican advise, or even this mindset that will help a non traditional sales person actually get some sales meetings and give themselves a chance to make some some styles. Yeah. Absolutely. Look, everybody loves to have their opinion asked. And so one thing that I would do certainly for the founders listing today is you wanna ask questions, and so I appeal. Path to mock, it might be a you wanna fun up a custom affirmative of potential customers. I height on. And you do that you could do this linked in. If you want to do it in text certainly much prefer the telephone his telephone you’ve got inflection Ugo conversation. And so the question might be high on trying to solve this issue. Do you do you find that? This is an issue in your businesses all people that you come across very often. And then yes, no. 00:25:01 – 00:30:01 Maybe hey, look, can I just buy. I’m just trying to I’m building out products. Wait, always trying to do XYZ cannot bar you a coffee, and and an Oscar couple of quick questions this week a love that that just tardily breaks at barrier down because you’ve you have come with an Oscar you’re asking for something. But you’re asking for something that makes them feel good makes them feel important. And so whilst I I kind of the defense mechanism is what’s your osc? Oh, you’re asking for this. I’m quite happy to do that. Because that makes me feel good and what you’ve actually done is. You kind of sucker punch them a little bit because Nathan met she got the sales Mateen and. Roy and carrying Amion while I love it. When you still in the in the death cycle. If you’re still in the in Bill Bill in the minimum viable product cycle. Now, you you actually sell it. We’re developing all we are a guide to the market in X amount of time. And if you can actually say we want a bike in some real wealth faces at love to ask you couple of quick questions. So then so what that did that does a whole range thing strikes a past EBay because they’re an expert. You can say, hey, look you recognize as an expert in the field. These are the issues are Saint heavy saying the same issues and they got Yay. And y’all had cool. I’d want to actually you’ll the type of customer that we want to market to eventually. But we’re not there yet. Can I buy a coffee and ask you a couple of quick questions about what you would like to see as a feature set. And even if you have finished the products, even if you are at minimum viable product sides in you still have that same conversation because it has all lies it easier to process of building the Knicks thing. So you’ve never done certainly softwares south fares is should be done. And. Salt as an MVP minimum viable product. I’m sure that all of L the now that is because just by the way, I’ve built at one stage maximum and viable product. Play three hundred grand my money and an extra iding months, building something and what I’d never did. This is back in the die is about fifteen years ago. Ten years ago. I didn’t actually have a gun the mock inside want, I was I always swept up in the whole Steve Jobs on brilliant. And no my test tests communities of of one. And so that was the the path made to actually burn a lot of cash and achieve zero. So that would be. Yeah. That’s going to read the night with so many people we’ve all fallen into that trap. Where we have dress sample size of one outselves. And this is definitely the right way to do it. And massively over best go to market, and you discover that you’re the only person that would actually buy that you built yourself a very expensive problem solving solution that show oh, the problems not that hot. If the problem is it’s annoying. But you know, it’s not it’s not that annoying or it’s annoying for niche. It’s not that annoying. Yeah. I think it’s fantastic advice and somebody that I think resonates will resonate with old founders. Now looking at the time, I’ve got one more question for you. Which is I’m just curious to know is that something at the moment that you think holds true and somebody you’ve been arguing that you find almost nobody agrees with you when it comes to sales. Yeah. Actually, that’s a good question. So actually one thing I’ve been thinking about recently is the worst advice that somebody can be given is just be yourself. And because found is people who want to actually do something they’ve got to where they are by being themselves. That’s how they’ve been showing. And being himself is actually how they show up every day. And you can actually choose to be different. Just the most people don’t. And so what I would put to people listening is. If you don’t believe you’re a salesperson, Don just thing all of them is going to be myself more. Well, that’s that’s not going to sell anything. So or I need to just be myself and old have more friends. What if you didn’t if you don’t have any friends or you’re in a situation new life right now, the not happy with that. Was you getting yourself? So so think about how you can actually be different and show up differently and looked at applause, whoever every socially emotionally, mentally and doesn’t need you actually have to shave your head and put an orange robe on and sitting on top of a mountain. But it’s but change you can change change is actually the only thing that’s hard coated and baked into the world. So you started we’ll how am I gonna show up tomorrow? So if you’re a fan or out there who who on not a good south person. But I need Siles way. The get somebody’s that can help you through that or change. I like that advice, that’s really good brilliant. So if someone has listened to the end the episode and home, I certainly that means they’re probably running some kind of Sasso technology software company and they’ve loved what you had to sign with lines getting contact with you. What’s the best way to find? You got a website, Matthew, Wyatt dot com, you’ve got velocity selling dot com. And. And of course, I if you find me on at Matthew Wyatt on on linked in or Asari on Facebook Lincoln and mass. What onto it up, you’re everywhere. So basically if they look for though, fine you and as soon as they were reasonable introduction to you. So they do that linked introduction. 00:30:01 – 00:31:46 And it’s a blankets introduction. You probably accept it. But better off mentioned the podcast give some introduction and ask for virtual coffee, and you’ve put a much better chance of actually getting that mating. Absolutely look at and you know, what? And Ottmar time is spent actually having conversations with people, and and providing some assistance of worked with venture capital people up worked for the whole range of people in the tech spice and NF I can help I would probably know somebody who can help. So I’m happy to have that conversation brilliant. Well, that’s the challenge for everyone. Reach out to Matthew, send him invitation on linked in telling you bitch, your coffee, piggies, Brian, and somehow you will end up benefiting from a sales point of view with your business. Matthew, thank you so much for your time today, a really appreciated. The advice is invaluable. I there’s so much more. I want to ask you about selling because I think it’s probably the one area where most startups fail. So I will almost certainly be getting you back on to talk a little bit more around particularly around the art of telling in selling the prospects. Thank you for your time. Chatting with you again, releasing and actually pleasure Tokyo Lennon, geez. Boston. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode. I hope we’re able to provide you with some great marketing ideas, that’ll really help your business as always if you’d like to support me and the show just jump onto Janes or wherever you listen to this podcast and write and review those reviews really make a difference and help me reach a broader audience if you’d like to connect the best way to find me. Of course, he’s on linked in following me on social media, which is connecting. And if you could ideas for future episodes or your mock data, and you would like to appear on a future episode just hit me up on late dinners. Well, I’d be happy to have a chest. Thanks, look look forward to speaking with you next week.

What Does a UX Designer Actually Do? with Warren Prasek

If you work at any Startup you’re going to hear the initialized job title ‘UX Designer’ uttered at least once a day. But what does a US designer actually do?
Why are all modern startups seemingly obsessed with UX, how do you ‘do it’, oh, and how is it different from UI?

On this episode, I chat with Warren Prasek from Connect Develop
You can also check out Warren’s photography at Xoodu

Here is the advice Warren would leave a Startup founder with after a mentoring coffee meeting:

Firstly understand the problem you’re trying to solve, validate that it’s a real problem that people have, and then come up with an idea that might solve that problem and then test it with as many people as you can and then keep iterating in that pattern.

So basically constantly evolve your design solution and constantly test that an iterator and improve on it. Don’t wait until you think you’ve got something that is a fantastic product that solves all the problems in that space. Try to focus on a particular set of problems that aren’t solved by anyone currently, and then constantly improve your solution and don’t wait for perfection, because as I said before that’s not possible, you’ve got to get out there and test it, and constantly improve.

Episode Transcript


0:01 – 05:05
When you think about the valuable companies in the world today, like Amazon, Google, Netflix EBay, Microsoft, apple visa companies with most of your interactions through user interface. And that’s why user experience it’s such a hot topic right now. In today’s episode. We’re going to dive a little deeper into user experience. And why it’s so important to make these pot of what you consider as you’re building a business. My name’s Jerry Doyle. And this is the facto podcast or bring experts from all over the world together to help you improve your business in marketing communications design, everything that you might need to create a successful business. Hi. And welcome to this week’s episode this week, we’re going to be talking all about USO user experience, and I’m joined by a colleague from longtime ago, Warren pressing who is a seasoned you ex- experienced sort of professional and currently working with the sod up connect develop Warren. Thank you so much for joining me. Hi, jared. Thanks for having me on really interested myself more about U X because it’s something that I use in my everyday business chats with clients I’m talking about you X you and inevitably getting both of those wrong. So actually, I think the first thing we need to before we go any further and talk about details. He quickly distinctly for everyone explained the difference between you X, and you I so we strike again. Yes. Show also use a interface UI design, effectively, that’s everything you see on the screen Yoda Voss or your computer when you’re interacting with the platform. Or out? So if you’re on Facebook, everything you see there in front of you that’s use interface the buttons ups images, you see in really visual representation, whereas you, Alex or user experience is more about housing’s work. Not just how they look it’s how they feel how things taunt together on how you move through an app and bicycling on get the value out of it. So there’s a lot of a lot more in depth kind of background research development design that goes into creating how flows and what’s the most efficient on enjoyable way to use an app rather than just how it looks. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I guess it’s something to wear your ex even as a phrase that I’ve really been using the last few years, it something where experience is going to be a big impact because it’s you can’t just turn up instantly had Zayn everything perfectly. You can copy things at a successful. But I’m guessing experience in years of knowing the way uses hype behind devices in screens and. Apps. His is a big advantage for you. Yeah. Absolutely. I guess you can never really know how uses agai to interact with something until you research it. So the first that each of us experienced design is really understanding firstly Utah. Getting he’s likely to use your apple parents. And then I guess talking to these Glenn on standing what they’ve pain points so challenges also how they currently doing things while problems that I having actually talking to them in observing them in their actual environment Thomason the context in which they using something Monte like at home on the lounge in an office. They might be a bus going somewhere. And also, I guess trying to come up with ideas for solving problems testing, those solutions very quickly and then issue arising on the solution over and over again in testing is customers always uses to find out what works best big sometimes, it can be very different to what I expected or had guest hadn’t even really coach me that you might actually physically what some Honey using. Interface or during a website. I was gonna say is this technology or or tracking you probably have both actually Abed technology that you can use to sort of give you insight since the white people are engaging with your UI. Yeah. Absolutely. So they’re all kinds of different tools. You can use you can use analytics programs, which by Optima sued potty tool what can thirty bicycle will be Google analytics and his other versions out there that you can use to erupt into cloud up, for example, that basically let you know, what using using which features you can even screen trite where they curse is moving. If they using a desktop divisive in can see where they posing on a certain point of interface, or if they what we call right clicks, which is win is clicking around random, which means they try to click on something stinks should were. But it isn’t a link deadlines click on something, which isn’t actually political things like that. You can get the analytics. And then also you have unmotivated testing where you can. Conduct a remote session. He contested advice with someone and you can awesome questions bar microphone in screen. Recording can see what they looking at. And then he can also do an actual in-person test. We sitting down with them looking over their shoulder with the have a scenario say, for example, you’ve logged into internet banking app.
05:05 – 10:01
Anyone a transfer money to your friend co bulb? What would you do any sit back and watch them try to accomplish that task, and then might be awesome questions along the way without donning them. And try to understand what is thinking of a time. They looking for while they understand as opposed to will actually doing onscreen because quad Austin, a use it will say something different from what they’re actually doing this human psychology. I guess I was gonna say probably find yourself as a marketer. I find myself reading behavioral psychology books now because it’s it’s that competitive advantages seek beyond the tactics some guessing it’s the same thing here. You all of a sudden become like a part time Casuals colleges trying to understand. Why people do things that make sense? Yes, that’s true. Suckle Ogies in critical. Of any design process. The number one thing to keep in mind when you autism. Joining is that you are not your user, which means if you design something for yourself, unless you actually full into your target audience than you might mistake because you the person going to be using the prince, and you really need to talk to his people get it in front of you very early concepts value hypothesis and then test you solutions over and over again and each right to get a little bit that every time rather than waiting and trying to get it. Perfect because perfectionism illusion is not really possible. It’s continual choice that you you sort of pursuing the same thing. Join down the line and hoping but young everything is accurate because she never got into it. So we can have flaws in inefficiency somewhere buy into the system. So I was trying to say, I love rights flakes. I’m going to steal that fries. I’m gonna use it all the time now. So that’s that’s a definite. Takeaway for me. I also find interesting just the previous podcast was around. Conversion rate, optimization landing page optimization. And the things you spoke about around Ryan fix actually hold true. Because the same thing that look Chapman became on. Speaking about conversion on physician is actually very similar to you ex opens you describe which is looking at people saying where they clicking on there. No Ling’s saying where you know, the links that you didn’t think were important, but everyone’s going to whether spending time, so I guess where I’m going with this is what does the tame look like risen, I’m guessing you just operate isolation. So who the kind of people within an organization or a startup that you spend the most time interacting with as a text approx based tech startup. We have a cloud platform for connecting energy to building sites, and we have sort of classic taught per same here whereby we have, you know, myself as designedly we have maybe some designs involved, then we’ll have normally approach to owner or prompt manager who has sort of a high level understanding of. A strategic and business goals of the prompts. We might have the technology officer in both sometimes we might have cells in customer success. You have a good idea rebel. What else is in the market in what customers currently using teaches? And then we’ll have some developers front-end and back end. Maybe a Q test engineer, and I guess the whole team which is like a cross functional team with different skill sets. Or you’ll come to get up, and it’s necessary for less skills to work together to deliver a feature in the prompts and tested a get it out into production. In who in your experience is usually the the person his Maleki to introduce a roadblock into this system in slow everything. Now, you know, sometimes there are technical constraints. So you want to do something, and you know, the tech team will advise you the bicycling we will always going to say you can’t do that. But that’s not necessarily true. You can do just about anything you want. The question is how much time and money are you prepared to spend achieving and Elba responsible? Of the their manager would be making the right choices wrought time. So basically weighing can we deliver the mice value quickest throughout uses so probably the proton in terms of bizarre, currencies and the development team in terms of things technical constraints will be the two biggest blockages, I guess. So if we scale this right back down for a super small slot up, the mine, they have to maybe three found as let’s assume that Clinton apprec- preciado for you X and importance who typically in that team is the most important person because when you get a founding Joel tria they tend to wear multiple hats. But if you’re looking at US is it gonna be the design person who leads that, or is it likely to be the person who’s closest to the customer who who’s leading sort of the US import Ewing’s is again is all UI graphic design, which is sort of more. I guess in a way superficial is really requires deep understanding of your customers, and they use cases. So I guess you need to. Have a lot of domain knowledge, and you need to be very in touch with the customers. Otherwise, there’s really no point building perhaps a launching something without understanding who’s going to be using it and what I need. So I guess there’s no easy answer.
10:01 – 15:05
It’s a bit of a mix you need to solve problems of people in a way that no one else has done before. If you bringing new pro Tanaka, we’ll do it in a better way than all the people doing it make it a lot easier the whole fund or low quicker. It’s not my simple onset, you’re wanting. It’s a blend of understanding customers, and then breaking it down and delivering a solution may stay needs which is a bit of bit from column think from Columbia. Yes. But I think in some ways is actually really good answer there, which is a lot of people might to faulting to think he will have does design way. So whoever is building the website. That’s the person in charge of you ex. But you know, you’ve painted scenario. They were e that you’ve got an enterprise software package in which case the client reps, the sales people might actually the people who need. To really have input on will be black lines trying to do with the product. This is what I wanted to do because often you’ve got a designer who can be quite precious about the design tiny, this isn’t exactly right. But if it’s not laboring what product nays deliver the experience isn’t easy, and and giving outputs, and it’s going to file, so I guess, you know, the tanker right here is you get close to the customer and the product, and when it’s trying to which Abe and whoever’s the closest to that in proably the post needs to be having the most amount of input on agree with that. It’s absolutely critical. John STAN won’t you try to change and to whom full even worried about how it might local field. Need to understand? What are the problems? We’re gonna solve so. Yeah, that’s the starting point. So other companies that Ye kind of look at that, you feel not just do you ex? Well, but potentially lead the way and what I mean by that is you know, how you have great big companies and they can introduce so nothing example, what did he call as three BAAs at sitting up on the top left hand corner. Someone had to kind of come up with that concept. I you know with the face. Boecker ambien. Bayer Google, but I guess what? I’m wondering here is other companies that we can look at that that ascending setting the trends in u x that everyone else gonna has to follow or am. I just imagining that this happens in the restaurant using trendsetters out there at all to be honest. Some of the tech giant’s in Silicon Valley who really setting standards, partly because they have a lot of cloud in the streets, really use advice and also partly because of the Harper afoul. Everybody uses it of offices in platforms out and also because they have the money to bore a hell of money a lot of resources into research and design and each racing towards a beautiful experience. So for example, apple the Airbnb as you mentioned a lot of these companies are really streamlining experiences, and as you say setting standards at all the people tend to follow. So in that sense. I she pot of the game is to have a look inside. Well if. If I spoke and Google, and Microsoft and Amazon role following this particular trends that it made sense that we have to follow unless you unless you happen to be lucky enough to be building interface for a platform has five or six million. Plus people you probably have to let them set the trends, and you just have to make sure you keep up with it. And yet, no this such thing as a handbook of menu. And you know, maybe even a rule maybe handbook menus of what is going to be top left and bottom. Right. I don’t know these things, but I’ve never seen a hamburger menu in the bottom right hand corner of the screen. So I’m just gonna assume that that’s the case. Yes. So he’ll effectively as you X conventions, which is something that stain so establishing so widely used and understood as a patent that most uses will recognize end instantly be able to use effectively. So makes a lot of sense to utilize those rather than trying to reinvent the wheel use something that just makes sense and works. The thing is though that’s a very sort of Bisi Ewing’s challenge show. Knowing menu of options, which has he say has been sold. And then depending on how you unique your per ups or experiences, there’s a massive amounts of room for experimentation in custom design that hasn’t necessarily been addressed by always other know, huge Totten’s of the industry because the head that rowing perhaps with their own needs their on use cases. So it is still a lot of things that you would probably won’t sue design yourself any game. Hamburger rock on is predominantly a UI element rather than actual experience so tied together. Those workflows in solutions in the white feels works is it’s a lot more challenging than just picking a I can bet you curious tonight. Is there you exploit trends of like topics right now in areas that everyone’s kind of experimenting with the area where the challenges of being met that you can kind of elaborate on. So we get a sense of guess, the cutting edge of you Xs right now, I guess like five years. Ago. Everything was kind of at based it was a lapse on your phone or you’ll ipad devices, something like that. Whereas now everything’s really moved to cloud platform. So pretty much only apps that reliable now. Awesome, cloud Bice Facebook, everything that apple does him in the Google does is all pretty much in the cloud.
15:05 – 20:03
And I think another state state-owned from that is where we starting to get into things like mentioned reality and sort of wearable devices act lived on a great job with the experience on the watch. For example. I think the the market is kind of fragmenting because in the future, not everyone will be just using a phone to interact with perks that we using a smart watcher of mentioned reality glosses, though, any number of other devices in your conflict sample. So there are going to be always other devices in ways of interacting with platforms that we probably on familiar with yet. And ultimately, it’s gonna be quite a challenge to design these different experiences, these different apps that he used in all kinds of different contexts, and I guess testing them in understanding what works. Doesn’t it’s a bit of a bit of a new frontier, actually. And then, you know, who knows where it’s gonna lead in the future much is a huge challenge. I mean talk about virtual reality just hardly thrives the whole user interface window. It’s a whole new environment which they to deal with. But you know, diversity is the challenge. It’s the it’s the the difficult part of the job that I’m I’m guessing you probably relish, whereas if ever was logging on in the same screens the same devices Siamese devices, you communicate dull. So I can I can say this issue. A lot of fun challenges there for you yet. He knows where it’s going to go on the teacher. It’s pretty amazing actually everything is starting now you need to go self driving cars and everything like that. And that’s a a US or prompt challenges will as well as technology in high with is required to make the damaging avoid heating. Anyone you know, how do you control? And ultimately a lot of the things signed to become alternated with his very little sort of interface and interaction with a user or scenes almost transparent to them that you did not physically touching. Green necessarily. So I think that divorce is in experiences again evolve from literally interacting with a screen to something that’s more abstracted than kind of blended in with the rest of the reality, your rain, and you you’ll almost not sort of nauseous unify civil almost disappear entirely until in eighteen track was in many of the actions. Remind phased is down just bike dean tragedy at night. Like, we just grow up. I mean, I think we’re with kids of an age, which means they were born looking at the idea, there’s an ipad screen, and they got the idea that put the finger on and every parent with kids ten years and year Unda have had that experience where they’re looking at six month old going hang on the worked at what swiping us on an ipad. And you just realize that’s just the power of the whole user experience. When you’ve got a six zero ABC wax it out and on how to get rid of pitcher, I can Chinese screen, and the great thing about kids is that I mean, not only those experiences incredibly in Shoda because you directly into. Acting with the objects on screen since obstructing at bar amounts or tied. You actually touching the object you want to interact with I mean, apple did an amazing job with you’ll you’ll gestures where you sort of pinch your fingers, or you turn things around on screen any felt like you actually sort of touching the objects. But the great thing about kids is and they’re bright white test your prompt, in fact, because kids have no fear of breaking stuff. They will touch. This do that do anything without C, or as adults tend to be more constrained than a bit wary that they’re gonna break something that’d be something wrong. So if you wanna tip contesting, your parental service. Get some kids to play with anelle thou break it pretty quickly. It can be broken. Hopefully, just the work’s not the actual device. I have a six year old son. And I think it’s equal risk of breaking up and breaking the device. Yeah. That’s that’s true. Yeah. Might be keeping us stay case. So for somebody does you ex how do you turn? You x into a prophet, Sandra? Not call center for. Business. What are the kind of things that you? You’re right down you present to shy. Look, I’m not just here, you know, throwing away John delivering value and possibly a return for the business. What are the kinds of metrics that you sort of define success by fee for yourself will? It’s interesting fortunate to be in a position whereby the company would Woodfull are incredibly invested in ease experience in practice on because I recognize that he’s not possible to compete, or I guess succeed in a digital platform without having a quality experience because the standard next time has been set so high by there’s other companies mentioned before Oubre, Annapolis, own fools that anything sub-standard people intuitively. They used that. He’s feel it doesn’t work. Well, they don’t come away with a positive experience which damages you’ll Brian in the foyer success totally. There’s no chance of vacation Claude I guess this concept you may have heard of cold designed. Thinking in the bicyc- premise is that everyone in an organization needs to think about design which is affecting. It’s about so problems. Don’t making something look beautiful that solving problems on making an experiences pleasurable as possible.
20:03 – 25:04
I guess and so when you take your approach from that point of view than designing the parole from the uses point of view, it’s it’s basically, Brian you don’t need SUNA -ssarily, so metrics to however, if you had to you can look at things like how many uses do we have how often using the parents are they using L sages? I we doing surveys to ask them how happy they out with Trump’s and also doing always use a testing sort of methodology sentimental earlier on about observing uses and mapping Nova time. How long it takes people to perform key tasks and how frequently they doing it which is a fairly good indicator as to I guess how easy the prompt is. A us amid full how successful you are as designer, yuck. Imagine that things like you have someone like Facebook. The amount of time spent in the app is a good thing. Whereas other businesses of transactional. Nice. She want people to read success in the shortest period of time. So as a mock it Arkan, imagine tying up nicely with conversion funnels interactions. I can also imagine net promoter schools in the idea people’s general satisfaction being super important to this whole experience. And when I think about giant brands that exists now, we’ve mentioned a bunch of the bait Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, eat, you realize your entire experience is through a user interface. So I’m guessing Beth probably why would saying job titles that really didn’t exist. You know, whatever it is five seven years ago now become such hot property in U X. It’s because I run the interaction with these brands is through user into fights. You know, there’s no shopfronts when open Damon have tangible products, and yet the most valuable companies in the well to just Tommy around interfaces is that trend to remove. Physical world and become much more. Virtually is that why would sane you X just appear as as buzzwords just seems to be growing importance or or their other factors I’m unaware of. Yeah. I think that’s largely true. I think as technology has become so pervasive in allieds. Thanks, largely to small fines night only really sort of brought to about ten years ago when apple released the first Iceland on that completely changed the way that sort of we interact with against each other in the world. I mean, the economy became more digital our everything, scalable blind. You say you shop online, you communicate online you go everything in your pocket. You’re in toss sodas virtual law is in your caucus. And because of that it’s become so powerful that we’ve learned to lease patents in new behaviors where we rely on. These devices may stage experiences having everything enough fingertips that as you say making Matt experience as seamless employed as possible is really critical, and that’s all. You see where it user experience design. Come in. The interesting thing is that user experience at Troy has been around for a long time. It’s just evolved over that time in his head different job titles against Jimmy is coach human computer interaction. And I know I keep mentioning apple on. I do like it prince Baen it’s worth noting, man. Why back in ninety ninety four when it released the first MacIntosh, computer. So we’re talking define years ago. They released a massive fake textbook bicycling, though defining all these patents interactions inexperienced guidelines. So it’s been around for a long time. But now, I think most people are aware of it because everything is so digital instantaneous yet of this same time that that would doing things like introducing screens in mice. And these things that we now just a shoe a standard practice, but you’ve got to have the cost your mind back to to realize they sing student, even in the exist. Let alone touchscreens. So I’m Cain to give a like a. A golden nugget of advice, I’m gonna pay scenario for you where which happens a lot when you’re next in an area. And that is the someone’s heating you some free advice. So in this scenario, a you’re at a cafe as a founder, she’s building an app, it’ll be an app about something. We’ll call about fitness for one of a better industry, and she’s really trying to get like any kind of information off you in you’re giving a lot of information. But if you boil that down and said, look, what’s the one thing you want her to take away when she goes off from Ezer experience point of view. What’s the one bit of advice that you want to really get stuck in on firstly understand the problem you trying to solve valid validate. That is a real problem. The paper has and then come up with an idea that might solve that problem and then tested with as many people as you can. And then keep into writing in that patents of basically constantly evolve. Your design solution and constantly tests that in each writer and improvement. Don’t wait until you think you’d go. Something that is a fantastic parenthesis. All the problems in that spice trying to focus on a particular set of problems that on so anyone currently and then constantly improve solution in don’t don’t wait for perfection because of the full that’s not posted.
25:04 – 30:03
We gotta get out and tested in constantly improve. Its really good advice. I’m in my head. I’m running through a couple of different things. I’m working out in the moment thing. Yes. Jared you need to do that. As like, you just let it go. Let a guy public ship it as they say that that’s the that’s the thing. Try not to be too precious. It’s difficult when you have an idea that you’re passionate about and you have a vision, and you really want to do the best possible thing for your uses. And you don’t want to short change them coming out. There isn’t quite right. But if there is a problem with your your assumptions, I guess then you really wanna find out about that as soon as possible don’t white get it out the tested, and there’s an old saying that says if you want to release your proper service. It’s to a point at which you not embarrassed but supposed to release than you went into Maung has one of things Steve Jobs said that he struggled with these first inclination. Napa was that. He would try to perfect everything. And then he got a little bit more relaxed things since of understood that you have to get something just out the door talking sell anything. So he had some Donna Giambi’s on things because he wasn’t absolute sanctions apparently by all accounts. Definitely visionary. How were the he’ll so did site at real Ossis ship, which means ultimately, you gotta get something out the door t don’t get it out the door never gonna sell anything. And to be honest. If you white until you got the perfect solution almost certainly someone’s going to beat them up, and you perfect solution will be with nothing because everyone is already using another platform. I want see the value in moving tools, and you become another is people that say haw had this idea. But some inside did it before man, I missed it. That’s my chance gone. Yeah. Exactly. So for example, VHS versus Betamax video tight from thirty years ago, the who’s in inferior technology, but it came out to market while you before. Amax? So basically captured the market share dominated even though it Betamax was a faucet period technology. It happens inside many different businesses. There’s multiple reasons why. But if you’re not in market, you’d never gonna win any market share sites credit advise. So is there is there something that you’ve put your eye on a trend that you think might be turning or something you’d think at the moment is right? But may be more than half of the other you X community doesn’t agree with and and you’ve got a chance to cut a Cobb. A visionary viewpoint on on you X moving forward. Is there any kind of area that you’ve got a inkling on that? You don’t think other people are really cutting onto at the moment. I wouldn’t say so because realistically, I mean, what am I gonna say the rest of the community, isn’t that? Either means a genius or a pariah. I’m not sure on unity on us. I think I’m Bryant is something a lot of experience in opinions. But nothing, but most of them would be in line with a lot of other you express Titians. I think that some in general the challenge is sort of where do we go from here? A lot of Princeton, sir. Services have already been fairly will covered. I think the trick these days in relief finding a niche that’s quite different. And really hasn’t been attacked before the other challenge, of course, is from business point of view, this somebody from people out there doing so many things you never really know what anyone else is doing until they’re in market. So, you know, you just gotta go out there and give it a go. I think. Yeah. I think it’s it’s almost impossible you kind of look at a market and try to find mean, obviously, there’s a cursory glance to make show. There’s not someone doing exactly what you’ve got the forty built a huge business. But I think it’s just a rule of thumb. They used is that if you’re doing it someone else’s probably trying the business at the same time with the same idea. So you ship it get something in the market right improve. And hopefully you win. So I guess this one thing that I have an opinion on that. Some people may not agree with I can’t tell on musk is a madman or genius. He certainly might using marketing, but some of these ideas and some of the things he’s doing it. So. Marketing he’s just literature on buildup Olis’ hot around berries technologies in order to promote something else on a conquest which way he’s going. But I find him wanting interesting enigmatic kind of those my theory is that anybody who significantly changes the status quo of society is mad to a certain extent. So they tend to be equal pots genius in mad. And I think about all the people have done amazing things, and you can get all of our genius idea that and you look and go. Yeah. But on the flip side, they also had always evil, pasta home. And I think I think that’s what happens in if he if you’ve gotta have this incredible pesonality think I’m gonna make the entire well, Dr self driving electric cars and all most colonize MAs at the same time, and and create efficient transporting tubes. Anything you’ve gotta be mad to do. That will. Thank you so much for all your insights warrant, I love it, all and what’s that phrase? We doing again, angry clicks range clicks, rage clicks. That’s the fries. That’s my taika. White writes clicks is the thing that I wanted to. Voyage of it. People want to all your work or accompany. Oh, you on whatever social media, you prefer the best. What’s the best way for someone to kind of engage with you will follow your work? So among linked Nikiel, sit on my website were impressive dot com.
30:03 – 30:29
Annals even plug to my photography sought a bit of a sideline may his much anymore. Now at kids spot of images there, Zuhdi dot com aches, ODU, don’t come and connect develop dot com. They company Woodfull. Obviously, we have our own website is so yes, we’ll free to have a look Aaron, please. Join me a line. It’s interesting getting in touch untested. Thanks so much time today were great catching up with you look forward to speaking with you again Phillies. She’s jared. Thanks night.

CRO for Startups with Luke Chapman from RedEx Digital

CRO – Conversion Rate Optimization with Luke Chapman

Covering topics including:

  • Simple A\B split testing
  • Heat Mapping – including crazy egg, hotjar
  • Clear Call to actions
  • optimizing and creating a fictionless conversion process
  • Landing page optimization – Google Optimize, VWO, Optimizly
  • What are the key areas of a page to optimize
  • Getting the Simple parts of CRO right

Episode Transcript


0:00 – 05:02
You spent hours creating Facebook ads you’ve carefully selected Utah guardians and even invested thousands of dollars of your hard earned money into advertising business. So why is it that after all this time and effort he didn’t focus on? Optimizing the onsite experience. In today’s episode. We’re going to talk about conversion right optimization or Sarah. This is the combination of hot and science that’s entirely focused on increasing number of people who hit your website and converting those into customers. My name’s Jerry Doyle, and this is rectal podcast right market professionals from all over the world to help start up found is like you learn the different marketing out foams to grow your business. Hi and welcome to this week’s episode this week. We’re going to be tightly focused around cri will conversion rate optimization. And with join discuss these topping by league Chapman. Who is a digital strategy marketing automation extraordinary who works with red x digital here in Brisbane. We’ve made look welcome to the show. Thanks jared. Fantastic way going to really explore this area, which I feel like it’s one of those areas when you have a business that often gets overlooked. It’s that thing that you stop stopping use. I actually done always worked to get people to my website chilly that can save what’s happening. And I’m just curious. I mean from your from your side, and that’s come my vision of it from your Cy why do you feel or what do you say that conversion rate optimization is selling Poland for a business to get? Right. These days. Yeah. Well, I guess now you’ve spent all the money will time or all three to get people to you website. So if they get there, and then they ended up leaving without in voting into whatever you close as conversion that’s a bit of a a waste of time in money. So you really want happened allies on that make the most of it. Two different ways to do that as some show. We’ll discuss I mean. Yeah. Well, I mean let let’s get into that. Because I’m sure a lot of people who are listening to this have maybe heard of conversion rate, optimization CRO. But it really maybe fully appreciate all the different elements kind can involve because it’s not like traditional marketing advertising this little components. He is. I mean, we’ve got a very short window here. But can you give us a rough idea of the kind of things you might be working on under the umbrella of Sierra? Yes, I really I guess anything that’s going to push people down that funnel towards converting into festival. And just reducing any points of frictional in the way. That can be also things. Jennifer, my point of view do a lot of testing so AB split testing most people hurdles multi variant testing, which is taking that to another level. And then just is experience you just making things as as possible reducing steps. And all there’s all kinds of ice today that list five in some of those. Yeah. I mean, if we’re going to do a simple ABC split test. So might as people get that, you know, you’ve got two options. So he we’re talking about let’s paint us in our in our heads. I’m ginger marketer. I’m blocking traffic to a website. It’s like car insurance website, sending those a car insurance visitors through to a website into a landing page. You’ll capturing those you’re the Sierra guy you’ll sitting there other end, and you want to split test that what what’s the two things I guess to answer. The question is what kind of technology using to do that? And what are the kind of thing you? I jump into an start to split test on those landing pages. Yeah. So I guess the first thing I would do is just trying to make NAS clear. Call to action on the page and just try and optimize the page bit as messy hand before you even start doing any any split testing. So yeah, just have one clinical action. If you’re driving them to a particular landing page, whether that’s your home page or specific landing digestive setup for an ad. Just make it really clear I guess from the ad side as well what they’re going to get when they click through. Marrying up the sort of against the message in the ad with Lenny page of the two things kind of become a little bit. Yeah. One of so many things that the we’ll drive able to bounce away from your side. They if they click through something totally different to what they were expecting the leave in a wasted. Visit so. Just making clear on the page. Don’t give them too many actions to take. So if it’s all about getting them to fill in a foam, then make that really clear action. Give them a reason to fill in the foam until you know, why they showed him what they’ll get. But yeah. Other than making the page as good as he can. Or does he think it can be on the new kind of get into the split testing? Things to test.
05:02 – 10:02
The. You can test different layout different wedding, different colors, different images, all kinds of things. Taking it back further. I would probably use some tools to actually see what people are doing the landing page already. So there’s a number of tools, you can use things like jar crazy eggo this a million among different tools outlet today. Things like eight mapping or scroll tracking take next just fair for people who die things that’s Trump into one. So obvious crazy egg. And not just because I I’ve met the founder, so I kind of like that. Maybe it was worth explaining what what crazy egg does in layman’s terms for people. Yes. There’s quite a few different bills that crazy egg. I quite look like Hajar as well. Yep. Yup. Depends much on his what ages you name buff. I think any kind of heat map tool is probably a good place to stop. And that’s just going to show you where people clicking on your website where the skirling where the mouse’s moving that sort of thing. So you can actually see. Like give you an example because it’s easier to to understand them once upon a time I worked for a car rental comparison sought so it would go on such in a wholly different car rental deals, and you could book the one that you wanted. I another business you’re talking about well has. Brisbane smaller. Right. So we know each other other businesses. Yeah. Exactly. So what I did day. Like, we had I can’t even remember now it was quite a few years ago. One of those tools like gum Hajar crazy Eggen had owned the checkout page where people put their details in any could clearly see intact, they headed to away could actually watch live sessions on the sodden say what people were doing, and you could say that would talk in Email number, and then they get to a section about credit card details, and then just exit the page, and so that’s the kind of valuable information that maybe don’t pick up just by looking at the page yourself. But if you can start to see us uses going through a page in dropping out at a particular point or even a particular point in a whole funnel is pages. Then it gives you really good clear. That’s what we need to split test us. So in that case, it was wedding around credit cards and had that was laid out on the foam. So then we’re able to test a few different options there different wedding different locations on. The foam. And able to achieve like a double digit up list between that and a few other changes on the checkout page where I believe increase conversions. I think it was by that twelve percent, which was you know. Yeah. That makes a real difference in the business. Yeah. I’ve had similar experiences where I used like crazy egg. So, you know, again, crazy bicyc- records session. So it’s almost like you’re looking at the user while their mouth moves around. And I just kept on these hot spots where and hot spots where you’re getting a lot of clicks, and I- recurring on an image. Which had no action point behind any softening hanging people think if they click these something’s going to happen. Sharon, you turn that image into an actual action. And what do you know people talking about the other end? So it’s that amazing experience. I haven’t I haven’t analogy for this kind of thing. Which is if you were if you had a local restaurant, the any like imagine like a little talion restaurant in your in your SABA when you go in there, you always find the Arna behind the BAA on the cash. Register looking at what’s happening. They look at the patriots walking in the customer’s going in and out how many people going into the restaurant and how they’re interacting if you’re going to run a restaurant, you need to say everything that’s happening. If you just walk into the end of the night pick up the tail look at the money and say, oh, look, I might X amount of dollars. I must be doing. Well, you might not. Say the subtlety that happening inside people want not be happy with the process. They might have been bad food cold late service. And so, you know, hey, tracking and mapping allows you to get that kind of vision. So I say that is being almost lengthy quivalent of walking into your own store. And she’s saying the white people are interacting with your website. So it’s great great analogy. That’s exactly. Yeah. A real world example. So I think it’s a fantastic thing to do. I wanted to loop back to something you mentioned a few minutes ago around the single coal to action on a landing page. Now, he’s but you would recommend for people is is removing options like removing navigation removing exits and pods away from what you want them to do in a landing page. Yeah. I guess it depends. It it kind of comes back to goal or your strategy around the page. So if is the home page of your website feel productivity he probably wouldn’t want to remove everything. Yes. But if it’s a maybe running a Google ads campaign and around a specific doctorate specific service.
10:03 – 15:02
You may want to just direct it to a landing page in a good example is using. Lead generation ads way you might drive someone to a page give them a value proposition. So maybe that can downloads you put together something valuable full you’ll market. So if you can think of something that they really interested in put together, a gripe tool or a checklist or little in many evoke was something like that is something that would be valuable to them they go. Hey, I really want that that looks like it’s good some good tips and tricks knowledge. Oh, something that’s going to help me in it. And I’m willing to enter the my Email address to get to to download that book. I think a lot of people have probably seen ads like that. So that’s an example where the ad is really pointing to one thing. Okay. We’ve developed this tool checklist or whatever. And so when you land on the page, that’s really the only thing that you should be having their is just talk about what that is give them the foam to fill it in. And that’s just one simple clear action that you want them to take. So it really depends. And there’s everything in between as well. So obviously, you homepage is going gonna link to other pages on your side. But I think it is important even on the homepage to have a clinical to action not done site audits before where just above the fold on the homepage. So just what’s on the screen without even scrolling or anything there was seven different buttons on this one website to click asking you to do different things. And if people get a bit paralyzed they go so many options, I don’t know which one the clip I’m not going to like any. And that’s that’s a big insight from behavioral psychology, these dyes which is actually if you increase the number of options available to somebody. They get like this analysis paralysis where she don’t make you decision at all and they end up walking away. And so. May be given three options. But I mean, this you just painted. I where it’s a late capture foam as one option. Puts you details in he in grab the white piper. All the all the check this. Whatever happens debate makes a lot of sense. And I wanted to touch on that, you know, we mentioned laid foam, I’m guessing the main strategy there is really to to given a data capture point in a conversion funnel. So it might be that this is a considered purchase. It might be at a Beijing bay into price software, something, you know, it’s a bit more involved. So you’re not going to purchase a new car kind of off a landing page, but allayed capture foam is a logical mid step where you can get a trackable definable point of against conversion. Yes, I work with a lot of debate clients and their tend to have seen affiliate extensive productivity, and maybe a long lead time. And so that’s why those kind of things can help because it’s really just building up that say Email database, and then you can communicate with them nut those leads every time it will be probably wouldn’t use that approach for a, you know, a small patches on ecommerce store or something like that. But the same principles kind of apply in that. You wanna have not clear cold oh action heroism with with TIMMY decisions to make and make that whole the whole her chasing process or the whole purchase get to whatever you count as a conversion just make friction lists as possible, reduce the amount of steps that are in that process in this make it really easy fantastic, sir. I mean, another area of conversion from his Asian whether till Allah like leftover I’m sure you do as well. Like once you get into this space, the fun things to play with in terms of landing page optimization. Do you have some tools that you prefer? You’ve us you recommend for for building these landing pages. If you’re not going to like role is where the you’d like to use that kind of work. Yes. Affray one. That’s pretty simple to use is Google up. The minds. It doesn’t have some of the advanced bills in whistles that some of the paid tools. But it’s a really great place to start. And it doesn’t cost you anything. So and if you starting off with a fairly small sites in in like, a big multinational Koper e com sought with millions of ages, then than the Google told a good place to stop this. Also, all the tools like visual website of the miser or VW as one of the one of the original like guys have been building that for years in there. Yeah. I don’t know how long it’s payment. Feels like it’s been around for about ten years. That’s quite a good job say, yes, same even with those tools like crazy egg and things like that. You know, a lot of as have been around for a while. But they’re around for awhile because they keep innovating. Adding h is just even just the basic functions of the tools are just so useful. Even after all that time. Yeah. The VW. Whoa. Google MAs optimize early. I think is another one. He’s kind of the higher end. Isn’t it? That’s more of a the enterprise level.
15:02 – 20:03
So yeah. And so. Then he kind of move into more enterprise stuff. Like, I’m the example, I gave before about the checkout page to actually use the web trends optimize, which was more of a covert enterprise. Tough solution. Which has a lot mobiles in whistles. But it’s probably not native to my stable. And if you using depends what you websites running on. But if if he using web press, which a lot of people are there websites programs, like a go up to Meisel vigil website of demise. Those kind of things usually work pretty well. There’s a lot of different other plug ins as well that you can use to split tests with would press one of the benefits of would perse is that this many people using in so many people creating things so it is it is great. Isn’t it gets? I’m thinking like are in his at Plugin for WordPress. You just thinking thank you. That makes my AD. That’s why I chose WordPress. You. Yeah. Exactly. But even if you’re not, you know, most of them just have a couple of lines of cover that you copy and paste into your side, and then use their actual tool to to do everything in truly pretty straightforward fantastic’s are are. I’m now in a situation where also thought about my landing page thought about skinny down a rough idea some landing page software or maybe using Google. What’s the respect about that coal to action? What are the areas that I want to be looking to optimize pretty quickly on that page like things spring to mind and things like headlines and images. They other the logical. Go is is it about whatever. Thank applies minutes. Spice on the page is probably what I wanted to be. Optimizing or is it or is there more subtle out within that? Yeah. And and also physician of things on the page as well. So. You know, you probably don’t wanna really long page in most cases, people have to scroll and scroll. And then you’ve got your call to action foam or your button, or whatever it is right on the bottom of the page on. So I would definitely play around with positioning of different elements on the page. Try not to. Yeah. I guess whatever’s above the fold. So that is what’s on the screen when you load the page before you scroll down, that’s the most important stuff. So like, you said the headline by around with with Wooding of the headline. There was a million different schools of thought on how you should write a headline. We’re I’ve had I’ve had a copywriting expert on how many people. I don’t remember which one it was. But you get back to that one. And combine with conversion rate optimization you’ll be on you a winning tickets. Hopefully that you. Oh boy. The what some say what’s right now for you. Like, what’s the what’s the trending conversion optimization that? You’re saying everyone said of jumping onto an focusing on right now. Honestly, I think everyone talks to that not a lot of people. Do it. On the hall of a whole discipline in visual. Right. So I think just getting out there and doing it is is trend that I would love to see more people doing isn’t that interesting people spend tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of dollars dropping people to a website. And then when they get there. They just go. Oh, well, I hope they convert interested to find out is there any or are there any trends at the moment than you? Find a really sort of hot right now that everyone’s focusing on when thinking about conversion optimization. Yeah. I guess there’s a lot of new shining, tools and different things happening in the in the space one thing that comes to mind that you’ve mentioned before to me is is jet books or even just live chat. So we use live chat on a lot of our clients websites. I’ve used it. A lot of. Why is that live chat the company or live chat to like the type of service? You talk about just the type of function so really met a which till you use. But having something on the sought that pumps up office help. That can be quite helpful to if people coming in airing. And so not sure either of it stuck. They haven’t found the information. They looking for the product they’re looking for ways around again, get a donate use the example too much, but the the car rental, in example, winded up putting on chat agents twenty four hours a day because we just tried it with one person for feel as a day until our it doesn’t hurt to have one of the customer service people just jump onto live chat. And we didn’t realize at the time that it would be so popular people just really came to chat to you. Then not so Cain to pick up the phone in coal or actually even Email. But if it’s something that pops up in their face like any notice you’ve been on this page for well. Is there anything that can help you with? It’s it’s such a great way to open that conversation and help them out before they actually leave your sought. And the semi tools to do that. I mean, we mentioned crazy before that even comes built in with chat. So you can interrupt the flow TV watching you website live drug Chattan live person’s been around for a decade laced during their business. And then you’ve got the new behemoths atone up like you into combs who had just again, that’s enterprise level. But that Connor solution is is something else.
20:03 – 25:05
So as the differently multiple solutions out there again, and and it’s funny. I think most people think about it. In terms of conversion conversion rate, optimization that kind of it kind of falls into a bucket of customer service. But if you get into conversion optimization, you can actually attribute value to all of a sudden it becomes a profit center on a call center. Gin and to a real world example like you give the restaurant example before. But you know, if you walked into a camera stool and looked around couldn’t say the the lens of the camera that you’re looking for and then walked out this is walking in and then having a bit of a look around. And then a sales consultant comes over to you. And is there anything I can help you with another looking at those canon cameras. So whatever it is. You can do exactly the same thing with your website base it on the page or productivity looking at and things like Thomas, like bug them as soon as they get to the paid. But maybe they’ve been this thirty seconds of to to give them a hand. And that can be the thing that pushes them over the line. I think we’re winning with analogies tonight. It’s that idea of. Yeah. Every show you walk into someone walks up and says, can I help you with anything? But they make that decision based on where you are. And how long have you been standing there for? So this is just the web version of real retail that we’re talking about here. So it makes a lot of sense. I love it. Yeah. And a lot of those tools to you mentioned into common end few others. But a lot of them will Lincoln with your CRM said he’s got a database of customers. The you have in your sarum. A lot of tools will either have live chat as part of that. Or you know, you can use a separate live chat program to hook into that VAR in the eye or some other way, you can then capture that customers Email address and the behavior of browsing on the website and sorta stuff so definitely look at the tools that you’re using whether this. The conversion rate optimize ation CRM. Whatever it is. You might actually able to link a lot of the different products together. The that you’re using the the one product oh the platform. I’m saying being cooperated more and more is Facebook messenger. Like, it’s interesting. The numbers that are now available and I hadn’t fully appreciated. How brilliant the ply from Facebook walls in this spice until I was shopping at a local Australian electronics retailer you Motte I’ll name them because they did a good job. How I love you. It’s like a gates paradise. I mean the shops if you physically walked to a Yuma. It’s the most impressive thing in the world. But I was shopping online. I wasn’t to show a chat bought because that’s what you do thought. Yep. Off your question, and I had to pick up my kids from school. And so I just shot Jeff walked out, and it’s pretty rude. But you know, it’s like I’ve had enough of this. I I’m gonna time. My kids are gonna be waiting for me at school. I’m waiting in the line at school. Am I find things I looked down at its message? And it’s the customer service rep from Yuma because we’re using Facebook messenger. Bought they were able to keep me engaged. So I was on desktop computer. At harm are then driven to the school. I’m standing outside the classroom. I find things and they found the product I wanted they’re able to replace it laid it all by messenger, but in completely different environment, and they were able to ship it out to me. They ended that dig- got to meet tomorrow or the next day has thought that’s the power of Facebook. If I’m using intercom if I’m using any other. Project platform the minute. I closed that down. I’m gone. I’m out of it like if they captured my data show, maybe they can get back in contact. But with Facebook you’ve got that ability to keep the conversation going, and you’ve created a connection thought. Yeah. Facebook’s on a winning this like I can just see how every business will just produce skins that ultimately just work with Facebook messenger. Because seventy people have at us like well Facebook of Economista was a really using. And there’s lots of plug ins again, the whether it’s. Ciampa fi. Or what press whatever building that a messenger experience into the the whole process giving you order updates and shipping updates and that sort of thing as well. It’s really kind of seeping into all aspects of the the whole process. Yeah. That’s that. Yeah. I was gonna say the example, you gave is just such a great a great way to show half. Facebook has sold the cross platform problem there. Exactly like, you said, if someone hasn’t given you the Email address some sort of personally identifiable information, and then they closed the window. You’ve you’ve lost them. So if they come back on different device, it’s a whole new user to. So that’s a problem that digital marketers and web people have faced a very long time. And there have been different ways of combating. Now, I think that Facebook example, you gave is just such a powerful tool, and it’s just it’s such a better experience. I I used to find it slightly creepy when you know, I’d be say shopping online looking at something, and they knew who I was by on a cookie by Sunday pixel, and then they’d say me the amount saying, hey, I think you left something in your basket.
25:05 – 30:13
And you kinda got oh, I didn’t really ask for that. You worked out who I was. And you sent me an Email with that same that seemed like too much for me. But I don’t know if it’s a time by thing or it’s just the factor messenger. But it just it was a different experience. Well, this is the future of customer service. So an leaky. By speaking about it, just it just totally transformed. What was absolute? Lately, a dead late for them. That was never going to happen turned into a sale. And I just thought to myself yet that is conversion rate optimization and chat just winning beautifully together. Yeah. There’s just so powerful conscious of time. And I don’t wanna make my podcasts emphasize guy for too long. So if someone’s listening to this, and I think to themselves I’m bored into conversion optimization, I spend a fortune in time and effort and money driving people to my website. I’m I’m super came to convert more of those people because it’s it’s a really big with about can poll, but I want to get somebody to help. I want to get an agency or an expert a consultant somebody to come in and help I’m wondering if you can give us a couple of one or maybe two questions that that posing can ask someone who wants to know about conversion optimization that are really test them out and safe. I know what they’re talking about. If that makes any sense it’s kind of like if you can give them the secret hod question. So they can find out. I was his here’s real. And who’s just you know, talking up a big Sierra game. This. Yeah. Well, there’s you know, there’s a secret handshake save to know this. This. No, I think I think it will just ask them again. What would be the first thing that you’d test on my website in why? And just listen to the rationale behind that. It’ll be pretty clear if they try to make it up or if they haven’t bothered to look at your saw ISO, but yeah. In terms of of tools and things like that doesn’t need to be super expensive. So if somebody’s telling you, all you have to buy this tool in that tool, and whatever else is this just so many simple ways of doing it. Now, it doesn’t necessarily have to lock you into a big contract dole. Big piece of software. I think awesome. You know? What would I recommend and any examples that they can give you of of what they’ve done before and some actual concrete before? And after his what it was his what we tested it was at theory going in. But but asking him that fear on as well, so okay, what would you test? But why is the more important question? Like, what’s the rationale behind that? What would you hope to achieve? I think you’ll get a pretty good sense from that. Whether they know what they’re talking about. No, I I liked that logic. That’s to me that’s tapping straight into the experience saying because in theory, you could split test everything, right? You could apply chaos theory. I’m gonna I’m gonna split test. Every single English weather dictionary on these headlines, and eventually, I workout which one’s the best. But experience says you can probably I would imagine you’ve ever look at the science. I I’m pretty confident if I work on those titles all those images, or whatever it is. I’m going to experience an uplift and against this. What experiences in conversion rate optimization? That’s what you buy these. Is your buying shorter tasks like you, basically say we could test everything, but I’m pretty confident one of these three solutions is going to be the answer. And that means you cut down the number of splits, you have to donate. So instead, it is being you can’t just do an AB test. ’cause you go on one of those two things. So I guess you know, when you looking at higher Unix, but what you’re doing cutting down the cost while using their experience. Absolutely. And you can you can install any of those hate map on. Programs pretty easily just have a look at the heat map, and you’ll get somebody it straight away. And then you can go in and go. Here’s the problem that we’ve go and that kind of saves a little bit of time up front, and like you said, you can just focus on that that problem right away. Then and just optimize that rather than optimizing everything. Here’s a really I like that like install an all mentioned crazy equipped mentioned the head of time or a fourteen day trial. So you two weeks before you go in and speak to an agency or consultant installed. Crazy egg. Get all the data send them the logging. And then Robin catch him. A hope they can actually spend twenty minutes having a look at it. And go up he’s the things we’re going to work on here’s why. And it’s going to be based not just on coffee. It’s gonna be a little bit of logic. So in that way, you’ll do whatever agency oh consultant heights, which is probably extract a lot of value. Add we’ll have to actually pay anything. So. Yeah. I think you know. At the end of the day, you should be working on the same page with if it’s an agency consultant or whatever you should be working towards the same goal when you’re on the same team. So I think if you can give them a little bit of that information up front, it’ll it’ll really help them with the process and at the end of the day, you you’ll pay that experience that they have and bring to the table. But yeah, I think if you can go to them us, those kind of questions getting ideas, their answers, you don’t need to necessarily know any jogging or any particular tools or anything to to assess them that way, you’ll get a pretty good idea from from what they tell you in from what you already know that you’ll you’ll business fantastic end.
30:13 – 34:53
I am. And I think I think the Tyco I tape in terms of something someone can do off the back of this is try to install some form of of hate map and click tracking software on the website and get that that visualization of how people actually interacting with your website that I mean if I’ve interpreted right? That’s probably the one thing. Someone can take away in that can rice off. Now get a trial of one of these kind of hit tracking because Lenny party softwares bit hotter. Then things a bit more work, but the click tracking and mouse tracking that seems to be an easy thing to install that seems like that’s the one takeaway brench start with and probably going to give them some kind of inside on that CRO. Yeah. Absolutely. You never know what you’ll on. Onto particular spot. The people are getting stuck at or conversely something that people are really loving. And then you can roll that out into other things you doing as well great. So one last question for you. I’m curious to know, why is this something that you believe in at the moment that absolutely nobody else seems to agree with you on when it comes to conversion right optimization. Well, I think what I’ve touched on the full is just try something. Just just go out there and try the tolls necessarily buy into. You know, the big expensive shiny tools on the greatest latest new. So flare you can’t do it for free. You can do it cheaply, and you can do you can at least get started by itself. So I think the the people especially don’t have the budgets to do it. They might have looked at it ought to hot too complicated in this plenty of people out there breaking their own products and services than going all you have to look into this contract. We need to buy all these extra tools. The point is you don’t necessarily have to you can get started with the basics, and it’s better than sitting in doing. So I think that’s probably my my key. Takeaway is just anyone can do it. I mean, obviously, there’s experienced that other people can bring, but you can definitely start yourself and stopped to unlock some of those insights by uncovering more of that data makes a lot of sense. I like that. I think I think any kind of startup any startup found his listening to this is going to be Kane to something doesn’t cost very much money. And it’s better idea. Did will you don’t have to you don’t have to necessarily employ a huge agency. I mean, you can do. But this stuff he you can do yourself. And if it’s one thing fan of startup companies good at it’s sort of grinding away light at not doing things and teach themselves new skills. So if spot a few people take on, Sarah, that’s a fantastic thing. Because it’s probably the area. That’s laced. Utilized when you think about all marketing as you pointed out already, but if the person is listening and saying yesterday, that’s great. But I don’t have any time because I’m listening to this ends eleven thirty at night. And I want to get in contact with you local riddick’s digital. What’s the best way to find? You all the all the company. Yeah. You can jump onto a website, which is radical digital come to RA DAX digital or social media where all of those under the same name. So just should join inquiry. Your catch me on social. Yeah. Find social such a fantastic way to cut through all the noise. You just like straight in contact the person, it’s not having a chat and business. And. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your times. I look I’ve learned a lot. I’m sure everybody else’s lent a lot, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your his fairly light evening here for us. So I appreciate you taking the time to to chat with us today. Not from until we can probably get for few more hours of battle of the stuff. But I think we’ve covered a lot of the important stuff there. And hopefully, some actionable insights that people can take land start implementing exactly I think we’ll come back. We discuss we’ll come back in a few episodes time. We’ll talk about Email marketing and talk about delivery, and all those kind of extra GI he things when it comes to CR, and I look forward to that second chat with you. Excellent. Sounds good. Thanks again. She is. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode. I hope we’re able to provide you with some great, marketing ideas. So it’ll really help your business has always if you’d like to support me and the show just jump onto chains or wherever you listen to this podcast and write and review those reviews really make a difference and help me reach a broader audience if you’d like to connect the best way to find me. Of course, he’s on linked in following me on social media, which is connecting. And if you could ideas for future episodes or your Maka, and you would like to appear in a feature up site. Just hit me up on late did as well. I’d be happy to have a chat. Thanks, look, alachua speaking with you next week.

Video Marketing for founders with Amir Bazrafshan

What did you think of the latest Gillette “We Believe: The Best Men Can Be” ad ?

What about Nike‘s “crazy women” ad?

Why is one ad, so much better than the other?

“To any founder listening to this……. go back to why you started, and the mission that you’re on, find your purpose, and then create content that’s in line with that.”

Wise words from Amir Bazrafshan Managing Director at Apricot Video Marketing

You can hear the full episode here, where we discuss:

  • The basic level of quality needed for video campaign – however using your mobile phone is fine
  • Sound – the unsung hero of a good video
  • Building conversion funnels into your videos
  • Using YouTube for brand hero content
  • Video case studies and how to build rapport between the subject and the viewer
  • using emotion to justify an emotional decision
  • We talk the emotion in the latest Nike commercials
  • purpose marketing and how brands are getting it wrong
  • The Shoe Dog Book by Nike’s founder
  • We talk about not confusing tactics with strategy
  • Why view count is one of the least important metrics for video
  • Should you do direct to camera or use stock video
  • How do you hire someone to hep you with video

Episode Transcript


0:00 – 05:07
Video is one of the hottest trends in marketing right now. And it’s easy to see why last year four point six billion video ads watched online and those same videos produced twelve hundred percent more shares than text any midges combined on social media, but video is much more than just a tactic in this podcast, I discussed how video is the ideal medium to live your brand message. Why is it that your business? Does what it does? I’m Jerry Doyle. And this is the practical podcast, bribing you mock knee experts from around the world to help you advance your business. That’s getting today is episode talking about video marketing. So welcome to this week’s episode and this week we are joined by a Baz Zaref Shan from Aprecu video marketing old way over in the UK. Welcome in me to the Shire. Hey, Jared, thanks for having me van testee. So so as a citizen, I’m glad to have every British person. I can on the show I lived in Britain for ten years. So it’s great to have somebody from the other side of the weld sharing their insights and this week. We gotta be talking about video marketing, which is near and dear to my heart, and he’s one of the trending topics for all forms of online marketing on but also marketing general, so this should be fantastic episode to help you help your business utilize these new formity marketing, which I’m going to be honest is probably quite daunting when you get started. But hopefully, the end of this podcast amaze going to be able to share some insights for us, which makes it same a little bit less daunting. So I’m going to jump straight in. With the through the first question the same question. I asked every week. I think he’s going to be bit different for you woke with focused on here is trying to understand if there’s any kind of competitive advantage or difference that a founder of a small startup company can bring to video marketing to compete with the businesses because obviously we’ve got massive differences in budgets. He so what can a small business or a founder of a small business due to possibly can pay with the kind of budgets that a lodge organization might happen meal? Yeah. As really good Arabia question. And I think what it comes down to it. Would it comes a few different things invisible? Am I think he comes down to the ability to humanize yourself, and what is that you will doing as startup as new company and the ability then to get the out at scale. Zero cost. I oblivious your website uploading it to teach eve and an and been able to measure the the impact of those videos. Against you know, what the competitors are actually doing as well. Right. So humanizing it and being real is is one competitive advantage. Do you do you look at this and think there’s a minimum level of quick or production that someone needs to do? Or is it depend on guess on the the company what you’re trying to portray video. Yeah. I think I think there is like a a critical mass, shall we say of a of a quality that you need. I think because we will say yes to HD even full K on our mobile phones. Now that does need to be a basic level of production quality. But I’m although I run a video agency. I’m not a an equipment snow, and I think is absolutely fine to to use your mobile phone slum is a sound is pretty decent. So you’re not lot outside the winds blowing give it God Bill to. Hey, you and actually sound is one of the unsung heroes of good quality video. So if you’re in a quiet room where even. If you wearing headphones mcferrin attached to it, and if you will create some some social vide, for example, that’s a really good way just to just to get started. Unlike I said, it really puts a personality to to the brand and it puts a face to to the website to the proposition and. Let’s not forget people people buy from people from human beings. Even in like, a B two B context is still people within the businesses the buying. And I think that does doing youth. There’s lots of different kinds of videos, you can create but just doing the simple kinds of videos can really help to to to give you the edge, especially when you’re starting out. If you don’t have big budgets to invest in your marketing. It can really it can really help you to make the connection to the people that the matter the can then they can help to implement your your message. Yeah. I think that’s really good advice. I am I often get frustrated when I say small business websites and small business. It’s a business of one. And you see a website tasteful and say, we do this Al company thinks this stop and think to myself, it is just one person.
05:07 – 10:07
Like, I think bay who you AVI human be real because that show competitive advantage or a faceless lodge organization. You’re a real person. So I guess in video that’s that chance to bring that personality full would and not hide who you actually are behind, you know, the idea of being be corporate productions, so I think that’s a really good advice. Now, the other thing you mentioned that was just around the different types of videos. So obviously, there’s a lot of different types of videos. What springs to mind is the idea of like the first feeder, which is often the explain of video? And then of course, you’ve got I’m trying to think of the other kinds of videos, you what maybe you could maybe can jumping inside. Give me told me the different kinds of video is that people rejecting. No, I quite let you struggling to think of them to be honest with you. So so to to think, I think the best way to think about types of video when we’re talking about tops video with the talking tactically, and I’m always cancelled talk about tactics because tactics will only work in relation to a specific strategy. But for now how about inside an Allen to the question. So if we look at a funnel approach to tomorrow ting, you the toll middle in the bottom of the funnel. So who looking at the top of the funnel. We’re looking at a wins. So social video is good for for wetness. You’ve gone. Content that is native to to YouTube. So I think YouTube platform, but I think it has its purpose in it shouldn’t be the automatic Goto place for bleeding all of your video continent. Cannot cheat work against you in some ways which can address a little bit later in the Trump. So I think you teams good full. I would say brand Herro content. It’s likely to be Tena purposes will shed educational content as well even video even video books. Peachy Friday has when it’s Facebook, sit alongside YouTube. It’s it could be this morning, specifically, different medium, isn’t a. Yeah. It is different medium in each platform will have a different psychology. So people go on for different things a niece of how to address that within the design of the video the you’ll kind of alluding to the full. So when people go onto Facebook than not specifically going on to watch a video, you have to bed by mind. When people go into each exactly what they’re trying to do. Right. That’s that’s their objective. So it makes it a little bit more straightforward. And do you think people on YouTube a generally looking for information sometimes I’ll look into into time? But sometimes I actually specifically specifically looking for information, whereas Facebook, it’s almost always just entertain me. I don’t know if there’s a big difference in the sake between the two platforms, but that’s my. Yeah. Immature interpretation of why people use them. No. I think I think that’s pretty Royal in. So if you look at what YouTube is it’s effectively search engine full video with some. Social elements tacked on like likes and comments of it’s not I wouldn’t call it a social platform. First influences a search engine. So what do we do when we go to a search engine like Google where we’re looking for something we often have something that we’re searching for we have an issue that we want to solve a problem that we won’t kind of Coleman nuts. The primary tool that we use and YouTube is no different is just a video full of that. So for example, you know, last year I had an injury during jujitsu Maturan doctor. So I went on THE the some exercises to do that can help the injury to I would not go onto Facebook and look for solution to my my groin injury. This wouldn’t happen. And I think that’s an important distinction. Because like I said when you thinking very tactically about a case what videos who would make him which platforms. You’ve got to bear that in mind, right? If you won’t decree optimal media content. Yeah. I know I distracted the conversation and let us off on a little tangent there, but we were talking about attention. You know, the so the funnel. And so in some ways Facebook is gripe that attention because people are saying, hey, entertain me. Keep me something. That’s flashy. That’s gimme he is exciting. So if I’m going to produce an attention video Facebook is probably not a bad platform for that. Whereas on slightly further down YouTube a bit more about you know, fact, it’s about satisfying problem and curiosity, and you’re in your naturally further down that that buying funnel so different platforms play anymore. Yeah. That’s still say it’s still still the issue with top of the funnel. Because what we won’t be doing through the down the funnel. Typically, another constitutes every kind of busy. But typically won’t people to be going on our website because we won’t conversion bear an inquiry sale subscription, something, right? So we asked to be able to draw people give people a reason to go to to the website.
10:08 – 15:00
So good quality middle of the funnel content, which is the consideration stays, right? So people have done some sun some home with the Dunston research. They understand what that problem is in looking at solutions now, and I think really good quality case study videos, not testimony. But Kate case is a really good assets to to invest in even if you do them yourself. I mean, a want to make sure that. Talk about on this podcast is applicable several news, that’s listening know that everyone has bullets, but you you come to yourself so long as you get the structure, right? And I think the benefit of doing a good quality case today is that it it. Consult of be like a bit of a magic trick in the if you if you do it. Well, you can actually create a repeal between the subject of the case study, which would be client that you service really really well in the happy with the new nickel could story tell in the person watching it. So what you’ve got Stutz that saw the objective. What you want to do is make people feel safe that somebody like me is that a stimulus problem NF had an awesome result by using this particular this particular business, or this particular predatory also this and not solve the crooks of the case study video. Yeah. And it’s econ. Yeah. I was gonna say it’s I think it’s much more compelling using video. A medium for them. Because you know, the typical Saudi is the, you know, two or three pages of stats and long text on a page or scrolling page multiple pages videos. I think of the advantages is passive one and two the other one is you can just put Cy much information into a video without overloading somebody so he can deliver a lot more contents. I’m guessing that’s probably one of the main reasons why videos, I popular right now. Maybe they’re the two main reasons she sort of agree with that. Or am I or am I million miles off with why videos, maybe what then I think? So I’ve I’ve read, you know, in the early days of April, I will hold my hand up and say, I did paper-based PDF case today. And I think. I think it comes down to what we’re trying to do. So you know, what’s it for what we’re trying to do is fundamentally persuade people where the best solution to that problem? And if we’re in the game of persuasion. Stott’s on and data isn’t sways. If it’s very logical. And very rational won’t. What is persuasive stories in the motions? Right. And that’s the edge clear advantage. The good quality video hats because you can stir up emotions you can create report literally within a few seconds. If it’s done correctly, really really economy can be very compelling. Whereas if you’ll using something more data driven it has its place in the sales cycle. But it’s it’s more. It’s more to justify people use logic to justify emotional decision and sales all sales is emotion surgery was amid it’s a post rationalization why purchase that cop because have remarried that brandishes because of it’s not it was entirely driven by the gut not the head. And then I just want wanna ten irrational based when in reality, I’m entirely emergent with my precious decisions. Yeah. I I I saw her is a new Nike ad out of the moment around. And women sport. And I think Serena Williams the voice over for it. And I must have seen it shed ten times. Now on my social made like on Facebook, my personal vice book page, and you can just see people’s comments. It’s like I was crying half. I throw it this. Is it you know, and people just making those comments, and and I watched it. Yeah. Like it’s emotional right from the start. They absolutely Nile it anything yet. That’s exactly what you just express. It’s emotion is a great story aligns with the brand, obviously. But the predisposition to purchasing a particular brand of shoes can be made at that point. There’s no point we’re not he sat there and spoke about, you know. Yeah, they also stopped shoes from rubbing on the tennis court flow. Yeah. That wasn’t mentioned. It was not performing. It was not, you know, they’re even dropped the whole Nike air, and you know, all the springs, it’s now just entirely emotionally lead. How as a founder or someone who may be doesn’t have that autistic finding that body? So you can watch great ad like that guy. That was amazing. I didn’t really consider myself an odyssey in that sense. What’s the best way? To actually go about building that emotion and other causes. I mean, obviously, I could high you April, and you could do it for them. But other other other maybe the axle callsas and things people could do to be a little bit smarter back out of a national storytelling yet.
15:00 – 20:04
So I’d always Tokyo to avoid tax because I I don’t believe in myself. I think I think I’m glad people took night because they all the agencies that produced those videos all just fantastic in this. So. So consistent with the quality. And also the impacts of the videos is as well, I think that absolutely fantastic. The thing about those videos, and we cannot shoot no matter what business where we cannot learn from them. The thing about those videos assist. So on brand. And they the rule the rule. Two nights mission is to inspire athletes all athletes are on the world and they define asleep. As if you have a body that you are not fleet. Right. So that’s what they’re trying to juggle addressable market. If you have a body you’ll pot about. Right. Right. And it’s it’s there why that comes through the imagery the video’s even in the innovation in the products. And if you’ve read shoot oak by Phil Knight, the founder of nyc. No, I haven’t. Yeah. It it was one of the best books. I’ve read in less clears read it last year. And it’s it blew me away. You just understand the the guy that started the company to sell. I mean, that’s be honest commodity because you can buy you can buy them from you know, you can buy them from supermarkets now different different different ruining cheese. He was on a mission. And he really believed he was hit a purpose in really believed him so to any found a li- listening to this even if you work in a really terse technical area, I’m not saying you should prompts aim to create video content is gonna make people crying, but get go back to why you’ll starting why you started what you started. And the mission your own find find your purpose, and then you create content this in line with. I think the whole purpose driven marketing it’s been misunderstood. And. Terribly in the last eighteen months also with people under the Gillette at for example, is a really bad example, actually is a good example of bad mortgage because would’ve sat down with the ad exists. We need to we need to do some purpose marketing and they’ve got it completely wrong. They need to do is go back to their roots really figure out their identity. What is it? They stunned full which equals that brand and create content. It’s tied directly into that. And that within itself is a really strong differentiator when you’re creating video content. That’s a fantastic breakdown of those Gillette ads. I as a marketer for loss of opinion, paces back and forth. But I think if so succinctly explained why greats people is because you look at it on one side you go. It’s a great ad. And it is a great, Ed. But it’s just we don’t believe that. That’s Gillette purpose emission. They went. The rises wearing created to kind of create a better, man. It was you know, what they mission was. But it definitely wasn’t that. Because we’re running on. We saw the Gillette hats from the last twenty years. And that’s what they were that wasn’t the position I would taking so. Yeah, you don’t get to turn around and change you you’ve used right away. So it’s interesting. No, no, nothing kind of a larger Paul logic coming to mate on Gillette from two lights, which have facial hair. If we don’t if we can say will a brand like Gillette’s peppis will mission is that then walked in Wilno. We should be able to even though I don’t, you know, I don’t use Gillette’s raises of seen. I’m on social media. Among among Facebook, watch TV, there should be speaking that to us. It should be. We shouldn’t not know. Fantastic advice, the promo code now is I’m talking to you about this an absolutely he’d get into purpose and storytelling. And then I’ve just thought to myself about video marketing, so I’m gonna I’m gonna make a mental note, we’re gonna come back, and we’re going to do storytelling, and we’re gonna run a whole podcast just on storytelling and get the feeling we could go on for a while. So really back into to video and just staying a little bit on Kohl’s. I’m curious around lengthens moving video, and you know, obviously, they’ve just had it recently that had video, and it seems to be working quite well, some Cain guest. The double question one is how you saying that evolve. And what are your thoughts on the new link team live that apparently is coming out? And how do you think that’s gonna play out? Yeah.
20:04 – 25:02
Well, again, it’s it’s a tactic. Yeah. I think it Lynton video Lincoln live. It’s it’s it’s tough take. And I always think that there’s a danger of being distracted by the newest tactics. When it might not be on on strategy was said earlier was tucked takes around league gonna be useful within specific strategy in a stress strategy is only good in relation to a specific goal. And it’s so the way that we structure I will get about two Minton Promessi, but I need to kind of take a step out. I to make make make sense. So I think what I’ve noticed from we’ve worked with our shares in startup some brownie companies over the year is that a big one of the big differences between startups in my experience in the big businesses is thoughts startups, so busy starting know trying. Get critical mass sales in trying to do everything they come to promote themselves. They forget to strip to their work in terms of goal, which is the overarching Fain strategy, which is a broad approach, which if happens increases chances of hitting that goal and an attack takes which the little steps that you take to to kind of meet strategy Whitson helps you get you go. Now, if if Lynton. Is going to be something a platform where your audience all that’s going to help you execute fulfill strategy than I think it’s gonna be a wonderful wonderful innovation and a wonderful development platform because you know, it’s to be it’s it gives you their contact with people that can really help to influence in the buying process. You can network really well in there. And I think that it could be a really good move and to give the people the embraced platform that need that platform, the tools again to humanize themselves to create that kind of repeal to really develop the relationships in a very human human way, it’s going to be able to irrelevant to somebody that is strongly in the beat seep places prep school Amazon shop props they are selling on Facebook on Instagram shopper fly wherever. And then those seats is it’s not a handle there. But you see the situates. So it’s very contextual. That’s what I’m trying to say. Because I don’t want someone. To listen meets say, oh, it’s a great tool for someone. That’s irrelevant to to go out and try because we’ll that doing then is wasting valuable time on something. That’s just not going to give them any any results. Fantastic advise. I I look I couldn’t agree more. I think it’s a lot of the time in PayPal or potential clients approach may in know, they want some help there often approaching me we tactics to recently that Facebook trickle that link trick in what can we do a little bit more than you just use sort of boil it down you try to turn them around to saying that it’s about the overall strategy. What what are you trying to achieve as much as a couple of weeks on on Instagram? And then you kind of find out, whether it’s, you know, for may I find out whether it’s a client that I really want to work with if they still hung up on the tips of the Drake’s thin, that’s probably not the the the right person. And I think it’s interesting that that’s your approach with video because I think video on the way you articulated his perfect. It’s video is a great lady him to deliver pesonality to live a passion. Create emotion. Because because you can communicate so much information site quickly. And it’s so real to you imagine for most businesses, especially small businesses that those videos a’done person talking to camera or do they actually try to sort of film things film, people slide images in in terms of like, you know, how a lot of small businesses tackling this because I say a lot of businesses will do stock footage stock video and try to incorporate that and try to pace it together and making us video or you saying that the most success is coming from people keeping it real using themselves and not try to reproduce it. Yeah. So we’re in the realm of presentation in style now. And that’s that’s really something that. It has to be a week some of our clients do their own videos. We support them into a thing we say to them. It’s just keep it. Simple. Keep it manageable fisa process you’ll doing so let’s keep it keep it reading really simple and something that’s going to be sustainable. Not just say, you know, if you do it absolutely knock you out for few days. And I need is going to be pulled off doing again. There’s no hard and fast answer. I can’t say that yet, you know, talking to come ROY is going to I’m, you know, a wish, but it’s just it’s it’s such a nuance space old of business is not just walked video marketing. And I think what people need to do is find a style that works for them that they’re comfortable with.
25:03 – 30:00
And then experiment, you know, us as a starting point. And then experiment and. When when when you looking measuring video if you count is one of the least important metrics, it’s never really a KPI. The what is important is engagement that you getting on the on the video? So you could try and experiment with a couple of types of video crops. You’re using stock footage invoice aver will maybe you all talking to come and just experimenting with the move recourse of you know, two or three months. Both approaches have low cost both approaches is a simple to to to do. And what you gotta do is let just really feel your way into it in the sea way getting the biggest response. And then when you’re getting something works, and then you down makes a lot of sense. So if I’m if I’m listening to this center, I’m struggling a little bit in thinking still to daunting. I think definitely need to hire expanding to speak to somebody can help me out. His there some questions that you can provide listeners with that. They can ask someone who that. So basically, they looking to hire someone to help with marketing how? Are there some answers authorities from questions that they can ask that have really helped weighed half the people who know the marketing from the people who have just added to a menu of different things that they can do yet. Totally. So know, the many many many countless numbers video production companies in videographers at very very talented ones about around says is there’s lots of people to choose from. If people just wanting literally just wanting video content the net fine using over for the fine using video production company. If that wanting something that’s going to potentially help them move the needle business that going to include some kind of strategy in meason than video marketing agency, I would suggest is to ask about talking about strategy. So what kind of strategy seem wyking in particular context? Yeah. You can take a look at people’s work as as oppose without some secondary to how a weekend to be. Measuring success these videos, and what are we gonna do if the not hitting if an performing because ultimately any business, whether you’re a startup were very. A very big businesses been going for for for a long time. It’s an investment that you make an investment has to be looked after. So as you would when you’re investing anything, you wanna know how you measuring it. And what are we going gonna do if what we second won’t in isn’t isn’t happening up that advice? I think fought too many companies brief out some form of video creative and get some of that comes back. That’s absolutely beautiful in stunning in Mainz zero to the business. We’ll try no difference to what they’re actually going to achieve. Yeah. The ad looks great. It’s a typically flawless, but it had some actually driven anymore revenue. So that’s fantastic advice. And also, I’m sorry just just to jump in. Because I know that it’s going up to view count again view count an ego really really closely related. I know are full for that all the time. I look I look at the stats like something back into us. We just have to see how many people viewed it. I know. I mean, unless let’s get it straight. I mean, unless the view count is zero then it’s important because he’s you know, doing something, right? And you need to do some more commotion. So the reason I bring this up is because we’ve had clients that said, okay. So we’ve had this production company that said that the that avenues of had millions of us collectively over the last couple of years and not sounds really really impressive. It’s a while. We’re gonna get visa gonna get ambles. And it’s not about the number of us. It’s about the right people what genial content for the right reasons. And then doing something that you want him to do after. So it’s it’s it’s in which the mall strategic thoughtful approach, you can adieu on YouTube is thirty seconds. Roughly, I think view on Facebook is about three seconds at least it used to be. So so I could literally take mama Bowe phone record thirty seconds of making, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Which is what I do kind of. To YouTube pull fifty pounds behind it to boost the post, and I could get a few thousand diesel not overnight. But it’s just gonna be views the loss for three seconds. So what value is content? What value is these adding the win the so-so insignificant? The watching such a small portion of the video it really really is.
30:01 – 35:07
Doesn’t mean anything what encourage people to do is is ask people. Okay. So. What difference if you’ll is is your video content? Major clients. Have you mentioned that in the past is the increase could bosons that you can talk to you about. It’s been an increase in queries. You can talk me about on average. How much of you’ll video content of people watching so percentage of the videos of people watching? That’s there the really meaty questions, which I bet. Eight percent of people are asked what know the answers to unfortunately, because we’re still at quantity time in video marketing. But the the answers that people should not yet. It’s it you’re entirely riot. For some some businesses, particularly if your business to business, and you might have a high value by customer any takes one customer to properly engage with you’ll be content, and he can cover it self and it can be hard to quantify. But for Mehta magic moment is always when someone you speaking to someone you sort of a new business meeting or you think somebody might be on happen. And then they quote you back to yourself because they’ve watched BDO that you’ve done. And then you realize that moment it’s like, oh, I’m gonna win. This like this is why we’ve definitely got a good relationship because whether they were attracted by the video will not the reality is if they watched a half hour episode if you jabbering on on on YouTube, and they’ve sort of listen to the entire episode, and it’s like yohaf Marion GmBH already so. And that’s that’s the value of that kind of content is available can absorb get to know you build a relationship bond. Well before you actually sit down and talk about doing business. So yeah, you know eats. I like to think I think like that. I don’t watch the views, but. A got us. I I still get a little egotistical tickle when I say something. In two thousand guess but credit vice so conscious of time, and and it’s gone really quickly. Because I’ve just I was looking I had so many more questions. I wanted to ask you, I think what am I I think as a last question I want to ask you is this something that you thinking at the moment. Some who you believe that you find almost nobody else agrees with you at the moment. Yes. So there are a couple of things and the first one is this going to what we said about view count and people placing too much emphasis on that. When I say, you’ll view count isn’t important know. You know, get some strange looks and you shake shakes of the head. But that’s fine. Because on the surface of it does make it does make sense on the fifth when you scratch beneath the surface and look things in detail. The not duck so full is appalled. And I think I think the other thing is when people again get too tactical too quickly. So we will have. So we will have. Potential customers come to us and say they’ve go ideas for this video this video in this video, and we talked to him about two in what we do. We find out is no coherent strategy, pinning those ideas together, so even videos works, there would be no discernible positive impact on the business. So. Physically had come to you with almost to fully informed idea about how they want to tactically deliver the marketing campaign when I say much better off coming to you with a strategy in an objective, and then leaving you to work out. Exactly how to execute it that exactly we, you know, we even get decide room times this video needs to through minutes, which is which is crazy when you think about it because it just needs to be as long as it needs to be. You know, you you tell the story in the stop so. Yeah, I I always pushed back combing talking tactically too early. What we need to do is go to the impacts that you will. Video content to make install stall from that. So impacts will go strategy. And then you can we can stop talking about time to vent chest to advice. I must say I’m hearing you explain these things in one of my brain, I’m going this is exactly right. And the other part of my Brian’s going to do that at all charity, you run straight for the tactics as well. He might be a horrendous client, but fantastic. Thank you so much. And I I’m I’m looking at this list of questions that I’ve gotten thinking, I didn’t even get any of those questions. So I’m definitely gonna hit you up to come back on again. I think I’d love delve into the whole storytelling stuff because that was a really interesting tangent. We took this. I’m Cain to do that about for people that are listening, and I sort of. Yes, are like what I may have to say I’d like to know more. What’s the best? Why they either getting contact with you find more of your words of wisdom’s or videos of wisdom’s that you might have. Yeah. Right. So. I own Twitter. Obi on in a space in a little patch of time where I’m not being overactive on. If won’t go question. I always respond. A my handle is at April coats on the school Imia, which is a m I all in its April fruit.
35:08 – 36:36
And if people want to check out our website, it’s just Dewey Toledo agriculture media marketing dot com, and if they send an Email Gertz studio, which will get forwarded to two million again on any questions that people want. They want took expand on anything. Explain anything in more clear way than that’s fun fake. And hopefully, when we when we post here percent, I always posted I linked into your questions jump on the late in because I think as we said route of the stop there the engagements way more important when it comes to marketing so wreck into the judgment on on social media as much as anybody. So I’m gonna thank you so much for your time early appreciated. I know it’s my evening. Your morning, and that’s the one is the internet. We’re not the same place. But we can be actually think you time you wisdom, and I look forward to speaking. Joe again, some point later on this year, you’ll very well. Thank you for having me Jisr. Thanks for listening to this week’s episode. I hope we’re able to provide you with some great marketing ideas, it’ll really help your business as always if you’d like to support me and the show just jump onto Janes or wherever you’re listening to this podcast and write and review those reviews really make a difference and help me reach a broader audience if you’d like to connect the best way to find me on the linked in following me on social media, which is connecting. And if you put ideas for future episodes or your Marketa, can you would like to appear to Peter up beside just hit me up on leaped in as well. I’d be happy to have a chest. Thanks look forward to speaking with you next week.